Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 08-01-2010, 09:37 AM

Nothing shows how different the early Church was than the Christianity which emerges after Constantine than the effective marginalization of individuals, texts and rituals which supported the transgender ideals of its original founders. While there is admittedly very little surviving information about what the face of earliest Christianity might have looked like to outsiders, the evidence which does exist suggests that it was cockless.

While it rarely gets much attention from traditional scholars (for obvious reasons) the Alexandrian tradition in particular seems to have espoused ritual castration. This must be the source also of the Roman Catholic Church's interest in maintaining an unmarried priesthood and the monastic impulse in general. What ultimately 'killed' the urge for the cockless state was the outlawing of ritual castration - first by the second century Emperors (on the penalty of death) and then later in the fourth century through various efforts within the Church which ultimately proved successful.

Nevertheless, it is amazing to see - in spite of the paucity of information about prominent figures in the early Church - how many of them are associated with the 'ideal of the cockless state.'

Let's make a list of Christians identified as eunuchs, who advocated a literal interpretation of Matthew 19:12 or whose followers engaged in ritual castration before the third century:

1. Jesus (Tertullian Monogamy 5. 6)
2. St. Mark (Philosophumena, VII, xxx) finger = figurative reference to the male member in all ancient languages
3. St. Paul (Tertullian Monogamy 3)
4. St John (Tertullian Monogamy 17 ‘spado’; Jerome vol. vii. p. 655 ‘eunuchus’; cf. Leucius Acts of John)
5. All the disciples except Peter "Petrum solum invenio maritum, per socrum; monogamum praesumo, per Ecclesiam, quae super illum aedificata, omnem gradum ordinis sui de monogamis erat collocatura. Caeteros cum maritos non invenio; aut spadones intelligam necesse est, aut continentes." (De Monogamia 8.4)
6. 'Marcion' and the Marcionite priesthood - "more ill-conducted also is Marcion than the wild beasts of that barbarous land: for is any beaver (Lat. castor) more self-castrating than this man who has abolished
marriage?" (Tert Against Marcion 1.1); "he [Marcion] contracts no marriages, nor recognizes them when contracted, refuses baptism except to the celibate or the eunuch, keeping it back until death or divorce. How then can you call his Christ a bridegroom? This title belongs to him who has joined together male and female, not to one who has put them asunder." (Tert Against Marcion 4. 11) "an outrageous thing, if that god is going to make us sons to himself, who by depriving us of matrimony has made it impossible for us to get sons for ourselves. How can he promote his own to that title which he has already abolished ? I cannot become the son of a eunuch, especially when I have for Father the same one whom all things have. For just as he who is the Creator of the universe is the Father of all things, so he who is the creator of no substance is but a eunuch. Even if the Creator had not conjoined the male and the female, even if he had not granted offspring to all living creatures whatsoever, I was in this relation to him before there was paradise, before there was sin, before the expulsion, before the two became one" (ibid 4.17); "among that god's adherents no flesh is baptized except it be virgin or widowed or unmarried, or has purchased baptism by divorce: as though even eunuch's flesh was born of anything but marital intercourse" (Tert Against Marcion 1.29); "can anyone indeed be called abstinent when deprived of that which he is to abstain from? Is there any temperance in eating and drinking during famine? Or any putting away of ambition in poverty? Or any bridling of passion in castration?" (ibid); "But before I come to the interpretation of this verse (Matt 19:12), it has yet to be said that Marcion, if he had acted with a little consistency, when he prohibited allegorical interpretations of the scripture, would have rejected these verses too as having not been said by the Savior; he would have had to consider that one would either have to accept (if one says that the Savior said this) that the one who has become a believer should dare to subject himself obediently to such things, or else, if it is not right to risk something like that, because it gives a bad reputation to the Word, one would not be able to believe that these words come from the Savior unless they could be interpreted allegorically."(Origen Commentary on Matthew 15.3)
7. the Egyptian contemporaries of the unnamed Alexandrian in Justin's report (Justin I Apol. 29) "And that you may understand that promiscuous intercourse is not one of our mysteries, one of our number a short time ago presented to Felix the governor in Alexandria a petition, craving that permission might be given to a surgeon to make him an eunuch. For the surgeons there said that they were forbidden to do this without the permission of the governor. And when Felix absolutely refused to sign such a permission, the youth remained single, and was satisfied with his own approving conscience, and the approval of those who thought as he did."
8. Valentinus (Clement of Alexandria, Stromata iii.13-14) and presumably many Valentinians
9. Basilides and the Basilidians. "Reciting the views of different heretics on Marriage, Clement (Strom. iii. 508 ff.) mentions first its approval by the Valentinians, and then gives specimens of the teaching of Basilides (οἱ ἀπὸ Β.) and his son Isidore, by way of rebuke to the immorality of the later Basilidians, before proceeding to the sects which favoured licence, and to those which treated marriage as unholy. He first reports the exposition of Matt. xix. 11 f. (or a similar evangelic passage), in which there is nothing specially to note except the interpretation of the last class of eunuchs as those who remain in celibacy to avoid the distracting cares of providing a livelihood. He goes on to the paraphrase of I. Cor. vii. 9, interposing in the midst an illustrative sentence from Isidore, and transcribes the language used about the class above mentioned. "But suppose a young man either poor or (?) depressed [κατηφής seems at least less unlikely than κατωφερής], and in accordance with the word [in the Gospel] unwilling to marry, let him not separate from his brother; let him say 'I have entered into the holy place [τὰ ἅγια, probably the communion of the church], nothing can befall me'; but if he have a suspicion [? self-distrust, ὑπονοίαν ἔχῃ], let him say, 'Brother, lay thy hand on me, that I may sin not,' and he shall receive help both to mind and to senses (νοητὴν καὶ αἰσθητήν); let him only have the will to carry out completely what is good, and he shall succeed. But sometimes we say with the lips, 'We will not sin,' while our thoughts are turned towards sinning: such an one abstains by reason of fear from doing what he wills, lest the punishment be reckoned to his account. But the estate of mankind has only certain things at once necessary and natural, clothing being necessary and natural, but τὸ τῶν ἀφροδισίων natural, yet not necessary" [Wace, Dictionary of Christian Biography p. 214]
10. Athenagoras of Alexandria who calls the unmarried state eunouchía, and the unmarried man eunuoûchos (Suppl. 33-34)
11. Julius Cassianus (Clement of Alexandria, Stromata iii.13-14)
12. Montanus (Jerome Epist. 41.4 describes Montanus as “a eunuch and half-man” abscisum et semiuirim; See Greville Freeman, "Montanism and the Pagan Cults of Phrygia," Dominican Studies 3 ( 1950) : 297-3 16; Benko, Virgin Goddess chapter 4, Gorec “Cultural Bases of Montanism”
13. Hyacinthus described by Hippolytus (Philosophumena 5.7) 'a presbyter, though an eunuch rather advanced in life.' He was a trusted agent of Marcia, the official concubine of the Emperor Commodus. I suspect he came over from Alexandria.
14. Marcus Aurelius Prosenes from procurator of the wine-cellar under Commodus to chief chamberlain of Septimius Severus. His continued - and unmolested - presence in the Imperial court is a clear sign that the persecution of Christians is very important to understand that members of the officially sanctioned Church were unaffected by the trials in Egypt.
15. Carpophorus identified as "from the household of the Emperor" (Hipp. Ref. 9.12) involved in the intrigue with Hyacinthus to free the future Pope Callixtus.(not EXPLICITLY identified as a eunuch)
16. Pope Demetrius of Alexandria Origen's political master and described by Severus of Al'Ashmunein as a eunuch from some lost source.
17. Origen of Alexandria
18. Proculus Toracion Christian who healed Septimius Severus and stayed on his household until his death. May be the same as the Proclus the Montanist who was also in the company of Severus and friendly with Caracalla (not EXPLICITLY identified as a eunuch)
19. The eunuchs of the court of the Emperor Diocletian (after the anti-Christian edict of 303 CE “shortly after, a fire broke out in the palace and suspicion fell upon the Christians, notably upon the palace eunuchs ... the eunuchs of his household, before so trusted, Dorotheus, Gorgonius, Petrus, were put to death.”[Wace, Dictionary p. 446]

Even Philo, in many of his writings on the Law of Moses, which are esteemed by reasonable men, says the following in the book that he titled: The Worse Loves to Attack the Better: "It is better to eunuchize oneself than to lust for unlawful cohabitation."

I am absolutely certain that the priesthood of the Alexandrian Church in the first, second and third centuries was populated by castrati. There is no direct evidence to this effect but this understanding can be pieced together from what is shown above. I also think that Roman Christianity borrowed heavily from the Egyptian tradition, literally finding unworthy stewards in Alexandria to reshape Christianity in the Imperial capitol, hence the great numbers of Christian eunuchs in the royal household.

It is also worth noting that Egypt continued to be the home of many early Christian encratite and ascetic movements which are known to have members among whom were numbered eunuchs. Epiphanius, Adversus Haereses lviii mentions the followers of Valens as well as Leontios of Antiochia (Bishop of Jerusalem; late-fourth century), Hilarion (mid-fourth century), Marcarius “the Egyptian (late 4th century). Athanasius relates in Historia Arianorum ad monachos, Chapter 28, and otherwise frequently about an Arian presbyter Leontios, who harmed himself.

In the Vita Sabae per Cyrill. Scythopolit. 41 (Cotelerius, Eccles. graecae monumenta III, 1686, pp. 284ff.) we hear the name of a monk Jacob from the great Laura in Syria. But these are not isolated cases. Epiphanius reports without a word of censure that not a few monks castrated themselves (Expos. fidei 13, p. 1095). The rules of the Canones in particular, which touch on this point again and again, give pause: Canones apost. 21-23 (=17), of the Council of Nicaea I, or the second synod of Arles 7 (hos qui se carnali vitio repugnare nescientes abscidunt, ad clerum pervenire non possunt); cf. the instruction of Pope Gelasius I to the bishops of Lucania (Migne, Latin Series LIX, col. 53). Vehement polemics against the eunuchs are contained in a letter from Basil the Great to the heretic Simplicia (No. 115 or 87, Maurin Edition III, 1730, p. 87; cf. John Damascenus, Sacra parallel. 5.27 perì eunoúchoon) and a fragment of Cyril of Alexandria against those who emasculate themselves and thereby fully and completely pervert the divine work of the pneumatikeè eunouchía (Nova patrum bibliotheca II, 1844, pp. 494-497)

Even more interesting to me at least is the possibility that Irenaeus and his predecessors might also have supported this practice. Not only why Hyacinthus the eunuch Marcia's teacher, Marcia herself was married to a eunuch named Eclectus who was Commodus's chamberlain (but she met Eclectus when they worked for Commodus's uncle). Irenaeus proudly declares that many Christians served in the court of Commodus. This situation was true also throughout the Severan period but it is curious that Irenaeus never attacks the Alexandrian heresies for their interest in ritual castration. Polycarp praises Melito's self-castration and Ignatius's name means 'angel' seraph (via Syriac nurono). Irenaeus was connected to an Imperial court in which Christian eunuchs had an important presence.

It wouldn't surprise me if Irenaeus too was a spado.

charles · 08-01-2010, 10:15 AM

It is incredible that I have never seen any of this evidence assembled in any book about the early Church. I have seen references of course of Origen's self-castration but it is usually characterized as a 'rash act' on the part of the Alexandrian. This list would argue strongly against that explanation.

What about Clement? Is there any reason to think that Origen's predecessor was also a eunuch?

DCHindley · 08-01-2010, 10:32 AM

Stephen,

It wasn't the penis that was removed, but the gonads crushed or excised, that made one an eunuch. If I recall correctly, there is currently significant doubt that these official "Eunuchs" were actually castrated, as some of them were clearly Romans, possibly freedmen but not slaves.

It was like Nehemiah being "Cupbearer to the King". I don't think pouring out the king's refreshment qualified him to run a satrapy. He obviously had a position at court similar to Chief of Staff to a US President. He had his complete trust. In that case of Diocletian, any "Eunuch's" in the imperial household had the complete trust of the emperor.

To me, "Cockless State (of being)" means Christians didn't eat chicken (everyone knows they ate cut up babies rolled in panko bread crumbs, duh), doubtless to protest the introduction of foreign foods by the Romans. FWIW, it was the Romans who brought the chicken to the middle east. It's all about politics, not sex.

Is there some sort of Allegro/Smith like metasignificance to all this "nutty" talk?

Well, gotta go move some furniture ...

DCH

aa5874 · 08-01-2010, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Let's make a list of Christians identified as eunuchs, who advocated a literal interpretation of Matthew 19:12 or whose followers engaged in ritual castration before the third century:

1. Jesus (Tertullian Monogamy 5. 6)....

Your list seems to be flawed when the very first name you presented was NOT described as a eunuch but a MONOGAMIST in "Tertullian's [U][B]"MONOGAMY".

There is just NO direct or indirect claim in "On Monogamy" that Jesus was a eunuch.

And in "On Monogamy 3, "Paul" encouraged people to get married.

This is in a Pauline writing.

1Co 7:9 -

Quote:

But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

Neither Jesus or Paul practised castration in the NT Canon. Your list is seriously FLAWED.

stephan huller · 08-01-2010, 11:30 AM

The Marcionites were dickless and chickenless (lol). Vegetarians.

I suspect that Christianity introduced a new kind of castration to imitate the androgynous state of the Most High God (Adam Kadmion). The same is demonstrated by the 'new metempsychosis interpretation' demonstrated among the Marcionites, Origen etc.

On the preservation of the original 'full castration' see the Wikipedia article on the skoptsy in Russia:

The Skoptsy (Russian: скопцы, also transliterated as Skoptzy, Skoptzi, Skoptsi, Skopzi, Scoptsy , Skapetz and other spellings) were a secret sect in imperial Russia. The Skoptsy are best known for practicing castration of men and the mastectomy of women in accordance with their teachings against sexual lust. The movement originated as an offshoot of the sect known as the "People of God" and was first noted in the late eighteenth century. The Skoptsy were persecuted by the imperial government and later by the Soviet Union, but enjoyed substantial growth before fading into obscurity by the mid-twentieth century.
[edit]Beliefs and practice of castration

Quote:

The name "Skoptsy" is a plural of "skopets", an archaic word meaning "castrated one" in the Russian language.

As their title indicates, the main feature of the sect was castration. They believed that after the expulsion from the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve had the halves of the forbidden fruit grafted onto their bodies forming testicles and breasts. Thus, the removal of these sexual organs restored the Skoptsy to the pristine state before the Original Sin.

There were two kinds of castration: the "lesser" and "greater seal" (i.e. partial and complete castration). For men, "lesser" castration was the removal of the testicles only, while "greater" castration was the removal of the penis as well. In this the Skoptsy maintained that they were fulfilling Christ's counsel of perfection in Matthew 19:12 and 18:8,9. The earliest records of female castrations date from 1815. Usually the breasts only were amputated, according to the 1911 encyclopedia. Other accounts suggest that the labia were also removed.

The Skoptsy also believed that a chief evil of the world is rooted in the lepost (bodily beauty, human sexuality, sex appeal, etc.) which prevents people from communicating with God. The way to perfection begins with the elimination of the cause followed by the liberation of soul. Castration ensured that all sins caused by lepost could not be committed.

I don't think the Skoptsy are only as recent as the eighteenth century. Russia was a kind of 'backwater' where a lot of ancient Christian traditions and texts were 'resurface' (owing to their distance from the center of gravity for Christian thought). Ethiopia demonstrates the same characteristic.

Again I think men and women were trying to physically emulate the androgyny of the Most High God. It was different than traditional castration in the Empire.

Clivedurdle · 08-01-2010, 11:33 AM

Quote:

...Castrati were rarely referred to as such: in the 18th century, the euphemism musico (pl musici) was much more generally used, although it usually carried derogatory implications;[1] another synonym was evirato (literally meaning "emasculated"). Eunuch is a more general term, since historically many eunuchs were created after puberty, castration thus having no effect on their voices.

[edit]History of castration

Castration as a means of subjugation, enslavement or other punishment has a very long pedigree, dating back to ancient Sumer (see also Eunuch). In a Western context, eunuch singers are known to have existed from the early Byzantine Empire. In Constantinople around 400 AD the empress Aelia Eudoxia had a eunuch choir-master, Brison, who may have established the use of castrati in Byzantine choirs, though whether Brison himself was a singer, and whether he had colleagues who were eunuch singers, is not certain.

By the ninth century, eunuch singers were well-known (not least in the choir of Hagia Sophia), and remained so until the sack of Constantinople by the Western forces of the Fourth Crusade in 1204.

Their fate from then until their reappearance in Italy more than three hundred years later is by no means clear, though it seems likely that the Spanish tradition of soprano falsettists may have "hidden" castrati (it should be remembered that much of Spain was under Arab sovereignty at various times during the Middle Ages, and that castration has a history going back to the ancient near east—stereotypically Eunuchs are supposed to have served as harem "guards", but more importantly they served as governors and high-level political appointees—they could not start a dynasty which would threaten the ruler from a powerful position).

[edit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castrato

Clivedurdle · 08-01-2010, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Other accounts suggest that the labia were also removed.

This is still a very common practice - it's not a Christian idea is it?

stephan huller · 08-01-2010, 11:57 AM

AA,

You really should read the references IN THEIR ORIGINAL LANGUAGE. It is a shortcoming which leads you to make frequent errors (cf. your claims that the 'disciples of Marcion' rather than Marcion). Why don't you look up ANY commentary on Tertullian's discussion in De Monogamia? You will see that it is UNIVERSALLY understood - "He [Tertullian] is the only writer to use the term eunuch about Jesus, using the Latin word spado, a common word for a castrated or impotent man."

The text of De Monogamia is replete with references to the high place of spadones in the Church:

Quote:

Sed an onerosa monogamia, viderit adhuc impudens infirmitas carnis; an autem nova, de hoc interim constet. Illud enim amplius dicimus: etiamsi totam et solidam virginitatem sive continentiam paraclitus hodie determinasset, ut ne unis quidem nuptiis fervorem carnis despumare permitteret, sic quoque nihil novi inducere videretur, ipso domino spadonibus aperiente regna caelorum ut et ipso spadone, quem spectans et apostolus, propterea et ipse castratus,
continentiam mavult. [De Monogamia 3]

Sed donato infirmitati tuae carnis suae exemplo perfectior Adam, id est Christus, eo quoque nomine perfectior qua integrior, volenti quidem tibi spado occurrit in carne; si vero non sufficis, monogamus incurrit in spiritu, unam habens ecclesiam sponsam secundum figuram, quam apostolus <in> illud magnum sacramentum interpretatur, in Christum et ecclesiam, competentes carnali monogamiae per spiritalem [ibid 5]

Necessario succedendum erat in matrimonium fratris sine liberis defuncti, primum, quia adhuc vetus illa benedictio decurrere habebat: Crescite et redundate, dehinc, quoniam patrum delicta etiam de filiis exigebantur, tertio, quoniam spadones et steriles ignominiosi habebantur. Itaque ne proinde maledicti iudicarentur, qui non naturae reatu, sed mortis praeventu orbi decessissent, ideo illis ex suo genere vicaria et quasi postuma suboles supparabatur. At ubi et crescite et redundate evacuavit extremitas temporum inducente apostolo: Superest, ut et qui habent uxores sic sint, ac si non habeant, quia tempus in collectum est, et desinit uva acerba a patribus manducata filiorum dentes obstupefacere ---- unusquisque enim in suo delicto morietur ---- et spadones non tantum ignominia caruerunt, verum et gratiam meruerunt invitati in regna caelorum, sepulta lege succedendi in matrimonium fratris contrarium eius obtinuit non succedendi in matrimoniam fratris. [ibid 7]

Petrum solum invenio maritum per socrum, monogamum praesumo per ecclesiam, qua super illum omnem gradum ordinis sui de monogamis erat collocatura. Ceteros cum maritos non invenio, aut spadones intelligam necesse est aut continentes. [ibid 8]

cum in revelatione gloriae suae de tot sanctis et prophetis Moysen et Heliam secum mavult, alterum monogamum, alterum spadonem ---- non enim aliud fuit Helias quam Iohannes, qui in virtute et spiritu venit Heliae ----, cum ille vorator et potator homo, prandiorum et cenarum cum publicanis et peccatoribus frequentator semel apud unas nuptias cenat multis utique
nubentibus; totiens enim voluit celebrare eas, quotiens et esse. [ibid]

Sed hanc iudicabunt iam non Isaac monogamus pater noster nec Iohannes aliqui Christi spado [alt. 'spadone'] nec Iudith [nec] filia Merari nec tot alia [ibid 17]

There can be no question that the translators UNDERESTIMATED and UNDERREPRESENTED Tertullian's understanding (or that of his source) that Jesus and the first disciples (beside Peter) were all spadones or eunuchs. It was a relic from Christianity's 'crazy past' (like Danny Bonaduce and Eddie Murphy's 'wild nights' with transgendered 'companions').

stephan huller · 08-01-2010, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:
Other accounts suggest that the labia were also removed.
This is still a very common practice - it's not a Christian idea is it?

Female castration is still widespread in Egypt and especially among the Copts. The Copts were also experts down through to the time of the Ottoman at the 'science' of castration and were used to operate on African slaves down to modern times.

charles · 08-01-2010, 01:36 PM

For some reason Stephen I find you never answer my questions. I hope I haven't offended you in any way. You seem to have answered the two other questions. It really is a straightforward question - what about Clement of Alexandria?

08-01-2010, 09:37 AM	#1
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The Ideal of the Cockless State in Earliest Christianity Nothing shows how different the early Church was than the Christianity which emerges after Constantine than the effective marginalization of individuals, texts and rituals which supported the transgender ideals of its original founders. While there is admittedly very little surviving information about what the face of earliest Christianity might have looked like to outsiders, the evidence which does exist suggests that it was cockless. While it rarely gets much attention from traditional scholars (for obvious reasons) the Alexandrian tradition in particular seems to have espoused ritual castration. This must be the source also of the Roman Catholic Church's interest in maintaining an unmarried priesthood and the monastic impulse in general. What ultimately 'killed' the urge for the cockless state was the outlawing of ritual castration - first by the second century Emperors (on the penalty of death) and then later in the fourth century through various efforts within the Church which ultimately proved successful. Nevertheless, it is amazing to see - in spite of the paucity of information about prominent figures in the early Church - how many of them are associated with the 'ideal of the cockless state.' Let's make a list of Christians identified as eunuchs, who advocated a literal interpretation of Matthew 19:12 or whose followers engaged in ritual castration before the third century: 1. Jesus (Tertullian Monogamy 5. 6) 2. St. Mark (Philosophumena, VII, xxx) finger = figurative reference to the male member in all ancient languages 3. St. Paul (Tertullian Monogamy 3) 4. St John (Tertullian Monogamy 17 ‘spado’; Jerome vol. vii. p. 655 ‘eunuchus’; cf. Leucius Acts of John) 5. All the disciples except Peter "Petrum solum invenio maritum, per socrum; monogamum praesumo, per Ecclesiam, quae super illum aedificata, omnem gradum ordinis sui de monogamis erat collocatura. Caeteros cum maritos non invenio; aut spadones intelligam necesse est, aut continentes." (De Monogamia 8.4) 6. 'Marcion' and the Marcionite priesthood - "more ill-conducted also is Marcion than the wild beasts of that barbarous land: for is any beaver (Lat. castor) more self-castrating than this man who has abolished marriage?" (Tert Against Marcion 1.1); "he [Marcion] contracts no marriages, nor recognizes them when contracted, refuses baptism except to the celibate or the eunuch, keeping it back until death or divorce. How then can you call his Christ a bridegroom? This title belongs to him who has joined together male and female, not to one who has put them asunder." (Tert Against Marcion 4. 11) "an outrageous thing, if that god is going to make us sons to himself, who by depriving us of matrimony has made it impossible for us to get sons for ourselves. How can he promote his own to that title which he has already abolished ? I cannot become the son of a eunuch, especially when I have for Father the same one whom all things have. For just as he who is the Creator of the universe is the Father of all things, so he who is the creator of no substance is but a eunuch. Even if the Creator had not conjoined the male and the female, even if he had not granted offspring to all living creatures whatsoever, I was in this relation to him before there was paradise, before there was sin, before the expulsion, before the two became one" (ibid 4.17); "among that god's adherents no flesh is baptized except it be virgin or widowed or unmarried, or has purchased baptism by divorce: as though even eunuch's flesh was born of anything but marital intercourse" (Tert Against Marcion 1.29); "can anyone indeed be called abstinent when deprived of that which he is to abstain from? Is there any temperance in eating and drinking during famine? Or any putting away of ambition in poverty? Or any bridling of passion in castration?" (ibid); "But before I come to the interpretation of this verse (Matt 19:12), it has yet to be said that Marcion, if he had acted with a little consistency, when he prohibited allegorical interpretations of the scripture, would have rejected these verses too as having not been said by the Savior; he would have had to consider that one would either have to accept (if one says that the Savior said this) that the one who has become a believer should dare to subject himself obediently to such things, or else, if it is not right to risk something like that, because it gives a bad reputation to the Word, one would not be able to believe that these words come from the Savior unless they could be interpreted allegorically."(Origen Commentary on Matthew 15.3) 7. the Egyptian contemporaries of the unnamed Alexandrian in Justin's report (Justin I Apol. 29) "And that you may understand that promiscuous intercourse is not one of our mysteries, one of our number a short time ago presented to Felix the governor in Alexandria a petition, craving that permission might be given to a surgeon to make him an eunuch. For the surgeons there said that they were forbidden to do this without the permission of the governor. And when Felix absolutely refused to sign such a permission, the youth remained single, and was satisfied with his own approving conscience, and the approval of those who thought as he did." 8. Valentinus (Clement of Alexandria, Stromata iii.13-14) and presumably many Valentinians 9. Basilides and the Basilidians. "Reciting the views of different heretics on Marriage, Clement (Strom. iii. 508 ff.) mentions first its approval by the Valentinians, and then gives specimens of the teaching of Basilides (οἱ ἀπὸ Β.) and his son Isidore, by way of rebuke to the immorality of the later Basilidians, before proceeding to the sects which favoured licence, and to those which treated marriage as unholy. He first reports the exposition of Matt. xix. 11 f. (or a similar evangelic passage), in which there is nothing specially to note except the interpretation of the last class of eunuchs as those who remain in celibacy to avoid the distracting cares of providing a livelihood. He goes on to the paraphrase of I. Cor. vii. 9, interposing in the midst an illustrative sentence from Isidore, and transcribes the language used about the class above mentioned. "But suppose a young man either poor or (?) depressed [κατηφής seems at least less unlikely than κατωφερής], and in accordance with the word [in the Gospel] unwilling to marry, let him not separate from his brother; let him say 'I have entered into the holy place [τὰ ἅγια, probably the communion of the church], nothing can befall me'; but if he have a suspicion [? self-distrust, ὑπονοίαν ἔχῃ], let him say, 'Brother, lay thy hand on me, that I may sin not,' and he shall receive help both to mind and to senses (νοητὴν καὶ αἰσθητήν); let him only have the will to carry out completely what is good, and he shall succeed. But sometimes we say with the lips, 'We will not sin,' while our thoughts are turned towards sinning: such an one abstains by reason of fear from doing what he wills, lest the punishment be reckoned to his account. But the estate of mankind has only certain things at once necessary and natural, clothing being necessary and natural, but τὸ τῶν ἀφροδισίων natural, yet not necessary" [Wace, Dictionary of Christian Biography p. 214] 10. Athenagoras of Alexandria who calls the unmarried state eunouchía, and the unmarried man eunuoûchos (Suppl. 33-34) 11. Julius Cassianus (Clement of Alexandria, Stromata iii.13-14) 12. Montanus (Jerome Epist. 41.4 describes Montanus as “a eunuch and half-man” abscisum et semiuirim; See Greville Freeman, "Montanism and the Pagan Cults of Phrygia," Dominican Studies 3 ( 1950) : 297-3 16; Benko, Virgin Goddess chapter 4, Gorec “Cultural Bases of Montanism” 13. Hyacinthus described by Hippolytus (Philosophumena 5.7) 'a presbyter, though an eunuch rather advanced in life.' He was a trusted agent of Marcia, the official concubine of the Emperor Commodus. I suspect he came over from Alexandria. 14. Marcus Aurelius Prosenes from procurator of the wine-cellar under Commodus to chief chamberlain of Septimius Severus. His continued - and unmolested - presence in the Imperial court is a clear sign that the persecution of Christians is very important to understand that members of the officially sanctioned Church were unaffected by the trials in Egypt. 15. Carpophorus identified as "from the household of the Emperor" (Hipp. Ref. 9.12) involved in the intrigue with Hyacinthus to free the future Pope Callixtus.(not EXPLICITLY identified as a eunuch) 16. Pope Demetrius of Alexandria Origen's political master and described by Severus of Al'Ashmunein as a eunuch from some lost source. 17. Origen of Alexandria 18. Proculus Toracion Christian who healed Septimius Severus and stayed on his household until his death. May be the same as the Proclus the Montanist who was also in the company of Severus and friendly with Caracalla (not EXPLICITLY identified as a eunuch) 19. The eunuchs of the court of the Emperor Diocletian (after the anti-Christian edict of 303 CE “shortly after, a fire broke out in the palace and suspicion fell upon the Christians, notably upon the palace eunuchs ... the eunuchs of his household, before so trusted, Dorotheus, Gorgonius, Petrus, were put to death.”[Wace, Dictionary p. 446] Even Philo, in many of his writings on the Law of Moses, which are esteemed by reasonable men, says the following in the book that he titled: The Worse Loves to Attack the Better: "It is better to eunuchize oneself than to lust for unlawful cohabitation." I am absolutely certain that the priesthood of the Alexandrian Church in the first, second and third centuries was populated by castrati. There is no direct evidence to this effect but this understanding can be pieced together from what is shown above. I also think that Roman Christianity borrowed heavily from the Egyptian tradition, literally finding unworthy stewards in Alexandria to reshape Christianity in the Imperial capitol, hence the great numbers of Christian eunuchs in the royal household. It is also worth noting that Egypt continued to be the home of many early Christian encratite and ascetic movements which are known to have members among whom were numbered eunuchs. Epiphanius, Adversus Haereses lviii mentions the followers of Valens as well as Leontios of Antiochia (Bishop of Jerusalem; late-fourth century), Hilarion (mid-fourth century), Marcarius “the Egyptian (late 4th century). Athanasius relates in Historia Arianorum ad monachos, Chapter 28, and otherwise frequently about an Arian presbyter Leontios, who harmed himself. In the Vita Sabae per Cyrill. Scythopolit. 41 (Cotelerius, Eccles. graecae monumenta III, 1686, pp. 284ff.) we hear the name of a monk Jacob from the great Laura in Syria. But these are not isolated cases. Epiphanius reports without a word of censure that not a few monks castrated themselves (Expos. fidei 13, p. 1095). The rules of the Canones in particular, which touch on this point again and again, give pause: Canones apost. 21-23 (=17), of the Council of Nicaea I, or the second synod of Arles 7 (hos qui se carnali vitio repugnare nescientes abscidunt, ad clerum pervenire non possunt); cf. the instruction of Pope Gelasius I to the bishops of Lucania (Migne, Latin Series LIX, col. 53). Vehement polemics against the eunuchs are contained in a letter from Basil the Great to the heretic Simplicia (No. 115 or 87, Maurin Edition III, 1730, p. 87; cf. John Damascenus, Sacra parallel. 5.27 perì eunoúchoon) and a fragment of Cyril of Alexandria against those who emasculate themselves and thereby fully and completely pervert the divine work of the pneumatikeè eunouchía (Nova patrum bibliotheca II, 1844, pp. 494-497) Even more interesting to me at least is the possibility that Irenaeus and his predecessors might also have supported this practice. Not only why Hyacinthus the eunuch Marcia's teacher, Marcia herself was married to a eunuch named Eclectus who was Commodus's chamberlain (but she met Eclectus when they worked for Commodus's uncle). Irenaeus proudly declares that many Christians served in the court of Commodus. This situation was true also throughout the Severan period but it is curious that Irenaeus never attacks the Alexandrian heresies for their interest in ritual castration. Polycarp praises Melito's self-castration and Ignatius's name means 'angel' seraph (via Syriac nurono). Irenaeus was connected to an Imperial court in which Christian eunuchs had an important presence. It wouldn't surprise me if Irenaeus too was a spado.

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08-01-2010, 10:15 AM	#2
charles Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Midwest Posts: 94	It is incredible that I have never seen any of this evidence assembled in any book about the early Church. I have seen references of course of Origen's self-castration but it is usually characterized as a 'rash act' on the part of the Alexandrian. This list would argue strongly against that explanation. What about Clement? Is there any reason to think that Origen's predecessor was also a eunuch?

08-01-2010, 10:32 AM	#3
DCHindley Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Mondcivitan Republic Posts: 2,550	Stephen, It wasn't the penis that was removed, but the gonads crushed or excised, that made one an eunuch. If I recall correctly, there is currently significant doubt that these official "Eunuchs" were actually castrated, as some of them were clearly Romans, possibly freedmen but not slaves. It was like Nehemiah being "Cupbearer to the King". I don't think pouring out the king's refreshment qualified him to run a satrapy. He obviously had a position at court similar to Chief of Staff to a US President. He had his complete trust. In that case of Diocletian, any "Eunuch's" in the imperial household had the complete trust of the emperor. To me, "Cockless State (of being)" means Christians didn't eat chicken (everyone knows they ate cut up babies rolled in panko bread crumbs, duh), doubtless to protest the introduction of foreign foods by the Romans. FWIW, it was the Romans who brought the chicken to the middle east. It's all about politics, not sex. Is there some sort of Allegro/Smith like metasignificance to all this "nutty" talk? Well, gotta go move some furniture ... DCH

08-01-2010, 01:36 PM	#10
charles Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Midwest Posts: 94	For some reason Stephen I find you never answer my questions. I hope I haven't offended you in any way. You seem to have answered the two other questions. It really is a straightforward question - what about Clement of Alexandria?

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