Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spamandham · 04-20-2008, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJ12

I think 12 scared guys wanting their dead beloved teacher to be more than he actually was is the simplest, most plausible explanation. But that's just me.

...you don't find "12" to be perhaps a bit too coincidental?

aa5874 · 04-20-2008, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Did you take into account any evidence or information about Jesus as presented by the NT, the early Church fathers and non-apologetic writers of antiquity?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJ12

I spent years studying such things.

I think they are people who still have faith-based opinions about Jesus after studying such things for years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

There is simple no credible non-apologetic source that can verify or made mention of any 12 scared guys who had a dead beloved teacher.

There is no dead beloved teacher in the NT or written by the early Church fathers, according to these authors, the god/man is in heaven and he is coming back again.

Your simplest, most plausible explanation is not history, just faith-based speculation, similar to the belief of Christians, who it would seem, always think that their god/man is most plausible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJ12

If you want me to respond to this, please clean it up so that it's more intelligible than it currently is.

I hope this is a little more intelligible.

Your simplest and most plausible explanation about a dead beloved teacher and 12 scared guys is not based on facts, it is based on speculation or your imagination.

I spent years studying such things.

TJ12 · 04-20-2008, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

I think they are people who still have faith-based opinions about Jesus after studying such things for years.

Assuming you meant "there are people who...," I agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Your simplest and most plausible explanation about a dead beloved teacher and 12 scared guys is not based on facts, it is based on speculation or your imagination.

I spent years studying such things.

My simplest and most plausible explanation is simply my interpretation of the facts. Is this where I'm supposed to get upset and write 10 paragraphs refuting you? I don't bite that easy. If I'm going to waste time writing long posts, you'll have to do better than that.

TJ12 · 04-20-2008, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJ12

I think 12 scared guys wanting their dead beloved teacher to be more than he actually was is the simplest, most plausible explanation. But that's just me.

...you don't find "12" to be perhaps a bit too coincidental?

OK, so it was 11 at that point.

spamandham · 04-20-2008, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJ12

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

...you don't find "12" to be perhaps a bit too coincidental?

OK, so it was 11 at that point.

...ok then what about BEFORE that point? Do you see any significance in the number 12 in regard to the number of disciples? If so, is it coincidence, or is there a better explanation than that?

TJ12 · 04-20-2008, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJ12

OK, so it was 11 at that point.

...ok then what about BEFORE that point? Do you see any significance in the number 12 in regard to the number of disciples? If so, is it coincidence, or is there a better explanation than that?

1) Before that point it was 12, because Judas hadn't killed himself yet. 2) define what you mean by significance--theological, political, spiritual, what? 3) Yes, I think it's coincidence. Unless Jesus had some particular reason he wanted 12. *shrug*

Not to put too fine a point on it, but do you have a point?

2-J · 04-21-2008, 03:16 AM

Maybe Jesus chose 12 because there were 12 tribes of Israel and he thought he was bringing about a new covenant.

aa5874 · 04-21-2008, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

I think they are people who still have faith-based opinions about Jesus after studying such things for years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJ12

Assuming you meant "there are people who...," I agree.

Thanks for the correction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJ12

My simplest and most plausible explanation is simply my interpretation of the facts. Is this where I'm supposed to get upset and write 10 paragraphs refuting you? I don't bite that easy. If I'm going to waste time writing long posts, you'll have to do better than that.

Well, this is an extremely strange response.

You made a claim or suggestion that the simplest and most plausible explanation is that Jesus was a dead beloved teacher with 12 scared guys, but now you me tell it is a waste of time to discuss the so-called facts on which your statement is based.

I have been studying this for a long time, HJers have no facts, just faith in Jesus or his authors.

spamandham · 04-21-2008, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJ12

1) Before that point it was 12, because Judas hadn't killed himself yet. 2) define what you mean by significance--theological, political, spiritual, what? 3) Yes, I think it's coincidence. Unless Jesus had some particular reason he wanted 12. *shrug*

Not to put too fine a point on it, but do you have a point?

Sure, the point is that 12 is obviously contrived for it's theological significance. It's possible to apologize it away, but it aught to at least raise red flags.

2-J · 04-21-2008, 07:10 AM

Why does the fact there were 12 ring alarm bells? Why couldn't Jesus, regardless of whether he was the son of God, haven chosen 12, precisely because of the pre-existent theological significance in 31AD? Why does that need to be a later addition to the story?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

04-21-2008, 03:16 AM	#867
2-J Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: UK Posts: 179	Maybe Jesus chose 12 because there were 12 tribes of Israel and he thought he was bringing about a new covenant.

04-21-2008, 07:10 AM	#870
2-J Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: UK Posts: 179	Why does the fact there were 12 ring alarm bells? Why couldn't Jesus, regardless of whether he was the son of God, haven chosen 12, precisely because of the pre-existent theological significance in 31AD? Why does that need to be a later addition to the story?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.