hjalti

Why isn't there an index here (on the infidels.org site) for false claims made by apologists like Craig, Wright and Strobel? Like the one they have on talkorigins.org for creationists.

I'm putting it here because I'm thinking about things related to the bible (but it could of course also include other stuff)

Could be a lot of work, but if you have a bunch of people who have refuted this nonsense for a while and someone who knows this stuff who edits the stuff (e.g. Richard Carrier) it shouldn't be that hard.

So why haven't the great people at infidels done something like that?

Toto

There is a thorough rebuttal of Josh McDowell on the Internet Infidels Library The Jury Is In. There is more material in the II Library.

Richard Carrier is working on a book on the Historical Jesus.

Switch89

People pretty much have done this. Michael Martin, for example, has written rebuttals to just about every apologetic argument ever made. So have I:

http://www.lulu.com/product/paperbac...search_results

ApostateAbe

The stuff I love about the Index to Creationist Claims is that it is comprehensive, well-organized, and you can find almost anything you are looking for with a simple Ctrl-F. I would love to see something similar against Biblical apologetics.

A potential stumbling block is that Biblical critics would not have nearly the same unity in their counter arguments as the anti-creationists. I and others would be upset to see the Index to Apologetic Claims being used to promote theories that are popular among us but unpopular among the secular scholarship. But, maybe that problem can be mitigated by the Index reflecting the diversity of opinions.

mountainman

Why index apologetic nonsense?

The major refutations include:

1) questioning The New Testament as history
2) questioning the integrity of the Testimonium Flavianum
3) questioning the historical existence of Jesus Homer Christ.
4) questioning archaeological material


The claims of Craig, Wright and Strobel are too trivial.

Chaucer

Please define "apologists".

Thank you,

Chaucer

Ktotwf

An apologist is a person who seeks to systematically defend a belief or worldview from questioning and intellectual attack.


To be honest, atheists need to work more stridently in the area of counter-apologetics. I'm pretty sure that Christian apologetics is a rotten edifice as a whole, ready to be kicked in by someone willing to put the time and effort into it. Ebon Musings did a piece a few months ago on countering common Christian apologetics regarding contradictory verses in the Bible, and it is amazing the degree of intellectual laziness that seems to permeate Christian apologetics. They seem only concerned with an answer, however farfetched, and often there will be different arguments that are conflicting as to why a verse is not "in error", and these sides will often conflict again with actual academics who publish on the issue.


Too much of atheist intellectual energy is spent countering Creationism (and, lets be honest, that fight is over, Creationists just do not know it) or pulling the general "Religion is dumb and you are dumb for doing it" line.

Most online Christians, when they speak about the "New Atheists", tend to sincerely believe, because they have read apologetics and gotten the one off answers they were looking for, that Atheists are fools with little knowledge of the "truth" of their religion.

If there was an athiest book as big as "The God Delusion" targeted at exposing the weakness and general shadyness of Christian apologetics, then Atheists would make serious ground.

Chaucer

Actually, I was asking hjalti, since he started this thread. I happen to be a skeptic myself, and so I'm curious as to which specific "apologies" hjalti is addressing, and which "practisers" of such or such apologies, as a group, hjalti is referencing.

Thanks,

Chaucer

Ktotwf

That is an odd question. He gave the model of the Talkorigins page. I would assume the answer to "which Apologies" would be "all we could find", and "which apologists" to be "any that present the arguments we are cataloguing".

Mageth

There are many such books targeted at Christian apologetics, I believe, but perhaps not as "big" as The God Delusion. An example I've read recently is :

Why I Became an Atheist: A Former Preacher Rejects Christianity (or via: amazon.co.uk) by John W. Loftus (who, BTW, is a member of this board).

The above book is specifically targeted at Christian theists, and covers many of the "big" apologetic arguments.

Other books by Loftus I've not read are:

Why I became an Atheist: Personal Reflections and Additional Arguments (a companion volume for the above book)

The Christian Delusion: Why Faith Fails

Why I Rejected Christianity: A Former Apologist Explains