Malachi151

Split from this thread

The Jesus myth combines the story of Yeshu with other Greek, Egyptian, and Roman mythical figures.

When Jesus was contructed in Greece he was given 12 disciples to represent the 12 signs of the Zodiac.

Chris Weimer

I don't think so. I would assume it would reflect the 12 tribes of Israel/12 brothers of Joseph more so than the Greek zodiac. Storywise, I dunno, maybe, but the parallels are very incomplete.

JtB - Aquarius
Mary - Virgo
Satan - Leo
Thomas - Gemini
Jesus - Pisces?

(btw - these two posts need to be split)

Malachi151

4th cenruty Jewish synagogue showing the roman god Helios surrounded by teh 12 signs of the zodiac.

The Jesus myth was a combination of the cult Egyptian cult of Horus, the man-god born of a virgin, the Greeco-Roman god Helios, the Jewish Yeshu, and the Persian mythical prohpet Zoroaster.

All of these religions overlaped in the region of Palestine from the time of around 200 BC to 500 AD, swirling together to create the Jesus myth.

After Alexander the Great conquered Persia and Egypt, the Greeks took over the area of Egypt and Palestine, as well as parts of Perisa, and the Greeks, merged these religions in Alexandria and Palestine, with Platonic ideas of the Logos and opposition to the material world champtioned by Plato.

What we call Christianity today was constructed by the Greeks and Greek speaking Jews mostly in Alexandria and Athens, based on Greek speaking Jewish mythology that emerged from the mix of the afore mentioned religions from the region of Palestine.

Jesus is Helios+Horus+Yeshu+Zoroaster

Of these the only one that MIGHT actually be real is Yeshu.

Chris Weimer

You give me a fourth century Jewish synagogue as a rebuttal for a 1st century idea? Have anything closer to the time period we're talking about. Or perhaps a source for the "200 BC to 500 AD" claim?

However, my claim was about the origin of his disciples, not Jesus himself. The Jesus story has obvious OT parallels, especially Joseph. Why would we not assume the easiest direction of information flow?

mikem

I would agree with Chris. In addition, you haven't told us WHERE this synagogue is. Date of construction and location. The idea that Jesus was constructed from older redeemer myths was a popular up to about 50 years ago, and of course, Doherty's version is just a variation on this theme, however, most scholars having regard to the titles given to Jesus in the gospels, "son of god", "kyrios", "Messiah" regard them as having their source within mainstream Judaism. Son of God in particular formed the basis of the early church's developing understanding of the historical Jesus.

I would recommend Geza Vermes "Jesus the Jew", or "Changing Faces of Jesus" for a more sober and scholarly treatment.

Malachi151

The image I linked was just an example that I could find handy on the internet, its not meant to represent the totality of evidence by any means.

The fact is, however, that Jews lived all over the Mediterranian and Mesopotamia. Jews lives in the Egyptian city of Alexandria, they lived among the Babylonians, they lived throughout Palestine, they lived in Greece, they lived in Rome. These Jews all traveled among each other, spread ideas, etc.

The Jews were also heavily Hellenized and influenced by Platonic ideas.

So, that all of these ideas become integrated by Jews and thus the "full story" of Jesus came from Jews is no strange thing.

However, it is clear that many of the concepts of Christianity developed among the Greek Gentiles during the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th century as well.

Yes, the Jesus myth came from teh Jews, as they were the ones that integrated the ideas of all of these different religions. Palestine is right there at the nexus between Egypt, Persia, and Greece, where all of these ideas overlapped.

The Christian mythology of Satan, Heaven and Hell, the fall from grace of Satan andthe war between God and Satan, and the Day of Final Judgement are all very plainly taken from Zoroastrianism. Jews just integrated parts of their existing mythology with the Zoroastrian mythology.

The image of the synagogue, if nothing else, is an example of how Jews in the region integrated a variety of religious traditions. The image of a man with rays coming out of his head definately preceeds Jesus, and was most commonly associated with Helios. The story of Helios also invovles being killed and then ressurected 3 days later, hence the reason that Sol Viticus is 3 days after the winter solestice, which was then transformed into Christmas.

mikem

Jews may well have been subject to cultural influence, however the level of religious and philosophical influence would have varied depending upon time and place. A 4th century synagogue is not a reliable indicator of Jewish beliefs in 1st century Palestine.

Some Jews may well have been influenced by Hellenism and "Platonic ideas". Which Platonic ideas did you have in mind? There is a difference between platonizing influence, and specific ideas, like those that Doherty assumes Paul to have adopted from Middle Platonism. The fact is that what some may call Platonic ideas were not solely Platonic, but fairly universal. That Jews had beliefs that were shared by other religions says nothing about the relationships of influence between them.

There was no doubt that Christianity was influenced by the surrounding culture, again the question is to what extent? To say that 3rd and 4th century Xtian theology was a synthesis based on it's Jewish roots and the need to explain itself to a predominantly non Jewish audience falls far short of proving that Jesus was a mythical being!

You have not provided a shred of proof that Jesus was a combination of Horus, Helios and Zoroaster.

countjulian

There definitly were parrallels between pagan myth and Christian myth, and the influence deffinitly was from pagan to Christian. The only problem is, there's so much bunk and non-sense floating around out there you have to be careful of posuers and psuedo-scholars like Archay S. I did a little research on this, and found a good number of parrallels supported by primary sources.

The Greek god Perseus, born of the virgin Danae and Zeus in a shower of gold:

Perseus, the son of Jove [Zeus] and her whom, in her prison, Juppiter’s [Zeus’] golden shower made fertile. — Metamorphoses 4.697

The Greek god Heracles (known to you under his Roman name, Hercules), who died in agony, was resurrected, and ascended to heaven:

Heracles, whom she had by Zeus…the poison of the hydra began to corrode his skin…and [he] tore off the tunic, which clung to his body, so that his flesh was torn away with it. In such a sad plight he was carried on shipboard to Trachis… [Heracles] proceeded to Mount Oeta, in the Trachinian territory, and there constructed a pyre, mounted it, and gave orders to kindle it. When no one would do so, Poeas, passing by to look for his flocks, set a light to it. On him Hercules bestowed his bow. While the pyre was burning, it is said that a cloud passed under Hercules and with a peal of thunder wafted him up to heaven. Thereafter he obtained immortality-- Apollodorus, 'The Library,' 11; IV, 8-VII, 7

The Greek god Asclepius, who made the blind see, raised men from the dead, died, and was resurrected:

"Asclepius was the son of Apollo [a god] and Coronis [a mortal woman]...he healed many sick whose lives had been despaired of, and... he brought back to life many who had died."—Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History, 4.7.1.1- 2

When Hippolytus was killed,...Asclepius raised him from the dead."—Pausanias, Corinth, Description of Greece, 1.27.5

Hermon of Thasus. His blindness was cured by Asclepius.— Inscriptiones Graecae, 4.1.121 - 122, Stele 2.22

"The youth [Asklepios] blasted by ancestral bolts [of Zeus] soars from earth…Phoebus [Apollon], you whined. He is a god; smile at your father, who, for your sake, undoes his prohibitions [and grants Asklepios life]-- Ovid, Fasti 6.735

…Hercules [Herakles], of Castor and Pollux [the Dioskouroi], of Aesculapius [Asklepios] ... And these benefactors were duly deemed divine, as being both supremely good and immortal, because their souls survived and enjoyed eternal life.—Cicero, Cicero, De Natura Deorum 2.24


The salvation god Mithra, who spilled eternal blood to save humanity, and left his followers with a sacred Eucharist:

You [Mithra] have saved us by the shedding of eternal blood.—Inscription, Santa Prisca Mithraeum in Rome

This rite [communion] the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For they set forth bread and a cup of water with certain incantations in their ceremonies of initiation—Justin Martyr, First Apology 68

The Egyptian god Osiris, who died, was resurrected, and ascended to heaven, where he will judge the living and the dead, forever and ever:

[the first examination]
They [the Gods of the Underworld] say, "Come forward.
They say, "Who are you,"
They say, "What is your name?"
"I am the he who is equipped under the flowers, the-dweller-in-the-moringa Osiris is my name."—Egyptian book of the Dead

the rites celebrated by night agree with the accounts of the dismemberment of Osiris and his resurrection and regenesis—Plutarch, Isis and Osiris 364

Isis, who resurrected Osiris and with him guarantees salvation to all who except Osiris as savior:

The keys of hell and the guarantee of salvation were in the hands of the goddess, and the initiation ceremony itself a kind of voluntary death and salvation through divine grace.—
Apuleius, Metamorphosis, Book 11, 21

And [the followers of Isis & Osiris said], "Be of good cheer, O initiates, for the god is saved, and we shall have salvation— Firmicus Maternus, The Error of Pagan Religions, 22.1

The Greek god Dionysus, who turned water to wine, did miracles, died, and was resurrected:

One woman [bacchant]
struck her thyrsus against a rock and a fountain
of cool water came bubbling up. Another drove
her fennel in the ground, and where it struck the earth,
at the touch of god [Dionysus], a spring of wine poured out….— Euripides, The Bacchae, 707- 712

the fierce resentment of implacable Hera, the Titanes cunningly smeared their round faces with disguising chalk, and while he contemplated his changeling countenance reflected in a mirror they destroyed him with an infernal knife. There where his limbs had been cut piecemeal by the Titan steel, the end of his life was the beginning of a new life-- Nonnus, Dionysiaca 6.155

The devils, accordingly, when they heard these prophetic words, said that Bacchus was the son of Jupiter, and ...having been torn in pieces, he ascended into heaven--Justin Martyr, First Apology, 54

Clivedurdle

Waltham Abbey (11C?) has the Zodiac across its roof.

Malachi151

Yes, and the thing is also, that whatever asic story of Jesus there was, as the story of Jesus was spread among different cultures, it grew its own mythology.

Which is to say, whatever teh "origional" story from the Jews was, teh "full picture" of Jesus that we know today didn't really emerge until around the 7th or 8th cenurty CE, after the character had picked up many more aspects fo the old religions from among its various believers.

For the most part, however, most of the things that we attribute to Jesus were in place by the 3rd or 4th century.

Its easy to see how Jesus was said to do the things that the other gods did when people tried to spread his story.

Talking to Greeks who worshiped Dionysus:

"Let me tell you about Jesus... blah, blah, blah"

"Well, Dionysus turne water into wine, so what do you hav eot sy about that?"

"Yes , of course, Jesus turned water into wine too!"

Etc.

I mean come on.

The main thing, however, is that EVER SINGLE element of the Jesus story existed before the origin of the Jesus story. There is not one single unique element to the Jesus story, it si just a combination of several of the other stories that were prevalent in the region.

Now you tell me.

There are 4 or 5 myths that exist in a region that has literally hundreds of different religions, and low and behold, a "real person" is born that "just happens" to have a life that exactly follows the same events as these other mythical people, whose myths were embraced by the people where he was born.

Importantly, when you look at early Christian belief, what you see is that there was not concensus on who Jesus was, if Jesus was a real man, a god, or just an idea. You see that, for example, as late as 200 CE Christians still didn't associate the symbol of the cross with having anything to do with the death of Jesus.

Explanations for the worship of the cross, of which there are several written by early Christians, never mention anything about Jesus. The first image of Jesus on a cross is not known to have existed until the 7th century.

Here is an example:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/03061.htm

Now you tell me. Do you think that a major Christian father, in 197 CE, would provide an explanation for why Christians worship a cross without mentioning Jesus if the story of Jesus being killed on a cross was known at the time?

Today people claim that Christian worship a cross because it is a symbol of the instrumen tof Jesus' death, yet in 200 CE the fact is that Christians had never heard of such a thing.