mountainman

* The library of Alexandria stood from c.300 BCE until Decree of Theophilus in 391

* The library of Pergamum at Pergamum (in what is now Turkey), stood from the 3rd century BC

* The library of Antioch was destroyed by Jovian

I have gathered a few libraries together in a few minutes.
The number of libraries burned by the christian regimes
of the fourth century is certainly not singular IMO.

How many libraries were burnt by the 4th century christian?
Is this list valid, and can it be extended?

A good resource for this question would be
BURNING KNOWLEDGE”:. STUDIES OF BOOKBURNING IN ANCIENT ROME.

Citations for the fourth century christian regime commence
at Chapter 5 - BURNING BOOKS IN THE CHRISTIAN ROMAN EMPIRE
and include Constantine's burning of written petitions of summoned
attendees in their presence at the "council" of Nicaea.

Things went downhill from that moment.


Best wishes,



Pete Brown

Spitfire

I had always thought the grand tally to be much closer to 0.

The author of this website has some interesting information on the fate of the Great Library in Alexandria in particular. A temple in Alexandria called the Serapeum was destroyed by Christians in 391, though there is no compelling evidence that there was a library in the Serapeum and far less to suggest that the Great Library was still in existence by the time this happened.

Malachi151

It wasn't so much a matter of burning them, it was closing them and the schools and the temples, removing funding, wars in which they were allowed to be destroyed and ransacked, etc. and this went on into the 6th and 7th centuries.

For one thing, many of the temples had libraries, and so much of the body of literature was housed within the pagan temples. As these were shut down, so were the libraries, many of which simply went off into private hands or into disrepair and the books simply never got copied anymore and eventually were reused for other purposes (back then they would "erase" books and write over them) or decayed.

The same occurred with the schools of philosophy, all of which eventually lost the state funding that they needed and were shut down.

Jeffrey Gibson

Does any one besides myself see the irony of Pete trying to support his no Christianity or Christian documents before Constantine thesis by appealing to, and claiming as good, a book that documents and discusses how and when preconstantinian Emperors burned books that according to Pete did not exist?

Perhaps Pete would do us the favour of running his thesis by the author of this work, Daniel Sarefield, Visiting Assistant Professor at Ohio State University. He can be reached at sarefield.2 at @osu.edu or through Ohio State's Department of History at http://history.osu.edu/

Jeffrey

mountainman

Bede has the agenda of a christian apologist.
A discussion of the issues cited by the author
Vlasis Rassias relating to the Christian persecution
of non-christians commencing with Constantine,
and extended for many centuries, was discontinued
by Bede (and others) in this very forum.


We are told by Ammianus (22.16.12):

Are we supposed to "believe" that the military
troops spared the scrolls in the temple? Where
temples have been ravaged by military force in
recorded history is there any instance that the
writings were left intact, while the temple sacked?

Start with Mao in Tibet, and work backwards.
Did the military leave the scrolls aside from the
sacking of the Tibetan Buddhist temples?

Evidence of common fact suggests that noone
was making any special allowances for the scrolls
at the time the temple was destroyed. Ammianus
makes sure to let us know that the temple, and
the library, were essentially the one respository.

Best wishes,


Pete Brown

mountainman

Hi Malachi151,

The question is confined to the 4th century.

That Christian persecution of non-christians
extended for many more is agreed.

I have no doubt that all the lesser things you mention
(ie: closing down, cuttting funds, etc) were enacted.

However, that is not all that actually happened.
It was alot worse than just these things.

Libraries (housed in temples) were burnt.
How many were burnt in the fourth century?


Best wishes,


Pete Brown

mountainman

Hi Jeffrey,

My first preference was the
Journal of Hellenic Studies.

Best wishes,


Pete Brown

Jeffrey Gibson

How is this relevant when it is Sarefield, not the journal, that you cited as having authority on book burning in the ancient world?

And why bifurcate? It's not a case of either the Journal or Sarefield. You can do both. What's more, you are far more likely to get a faster response from Sarefield than you will from the editor of, and vetters at, JHS.

Besides that, there's also the previously recommended, "yes I [i..e, you]will send shortly my questions about Momigliano to the" Classics List [how many months ago was that?] to run your thesis by.

In case you forgot where they are, go here: http://lsv.uky.edu/archives/classics-l.html

Jeffrey

mountainman

Good point.


I think there are three levels of investigations here:


1) The presence of libraries, books and scrolls within temples.

Thus the destruction of temples is to be assessed in this question
alongside the destruction of "libraries". I dont think it is clear to
all readers that the "State Library System" worked a little differently
in the fourth century than it does today in the 21st, and that the
ancient temples, graduating in scales from immense to tiny, were
in fact representative of "miniature libraries" scattered but previously
operated under a tolerance and collective collegiate, before the 4th
century.

2) The destruction of libraries, temples and books themselves.

The title of the work "Burning Knowledge" is highly relevant.
It highlights that many instances of "search and destroy" for
various sets of books were enacted, and that the imperial
enactment of burning books was eventually granted (c.350?)
to the Bishops of Ecclesistical Councils. Clearly, the canon
was formed by a process which included the destruction of
books by "other parties". This issue must examine the targets
of edicts -- Porphyry by edict of Constantine, and subsequent
christian emperors, etc, etc, etc.

3)The rediscovery of "burnt knowledge"

Due to this flagrantly evident use of destruction by fire in
the fourth century, forbidden texts were more often forced
out of common circulation, and preserved in relatively lonely
places, and so attempt preservation. Hauls concealed for
this safekeeping during the fourth century, include the Nag
Hammadi codices (and the Greek Magical Papyri) --- are
surprisingly being found and "re-discovered".


The question ...

For some reason Richard Carrier either has mistated the number
of libraries destroyed by the christians in the fourth century, or
he has a very restricted view and definition of the term "library"
which somehow excludes all but perhaps one "major library".

I'd like to know why the figure of one was selected, and if in
fact it was inadvertently selected without prior thought, or
with specific restrictions of terms in mind.

Can you (or anyone else) contribute in some manner to an
illumination of the issue which the subject of this thread is
attempting to address?


Best wishes,


Pete Brown

mountainman

We share the common theory that Christianity existed
after Constantine, and the ground of the fourth century
is the common playing field.

Irrespective of when christianity was actually invented
the christian persecution of non-christians in the fourth
century, the destruction of the non-christian temples
and libraries, books and knowledge, is recorded in
significant detail in the sources.

We know that christian apologists wish to downplay this
era of christian atrocities, book-burning and destruction.
We have already seen Bede plugging zero libraries.

My guess at the moment is that the figure is more than
a dozen. That is, the christian regimes of the fourth
century were responsible for the burning and destruction
of more than a dozen "libraries" (which I use in the general
sense to include collections of books traditionally held on
site within a "temple" or "temple-complex").


Best wishes,


Pete Brown