Logical

Can we be objective here and, as non-believers nonetheless, still concede that we find some Biblical stories to have good moral lessons?

I actually tried, going over the major ones in my head. I can't think of anything. Adam and Eve were severely and permanently punished for eating some sort of fruit. In the story of Noah, God decides to kill everyone (I mean, seriously, how bad could all humanity have been to deserve complete destruction?) Abraham supposedly exemplifies a high moral standard by agreeing to kill his own son. God intentionally "hardens" the Pharaoh's heart and then uses his stubbornness as an excuse to inflict horrible tragedies upon countless innocent people, including children. God intentionally tortures Job and slaughters all of his innocent children just to test his faith. And the list is long, taking us all the way to Jesus, where we learn that the average imperfect Joe is so deserving of eternal suffering, God decided to commit suicide to rescue Joe, from Himself, and Joe must intellectually submit to this act through blind faith, or else face the consequences.

How did we, as a society, become so desensitized that we instinctively think of the Bible as a good moral foundation, even if it is entirely fictional? How did we get to the point in the Western World, with the Bible occupying such a prominent place in our intellectual foundation, where we adopted universal humanistic values such as freedom, justice and compassion?

I expect Christian fundamentalists and liberal Christians alike probably think I'm twisting the meaning of the stories and exaggerating the seemingly bad parts of the otherwise good allegories.

maddog

I once listened to Bill Moyers's series on Genesis (round table discussions) and was struck that the only character in Genesis that I found to be morally mostly positive was Joseph, in the sense of forgiving the family that wronged him and giving them shelter and food in hard times.

Of course, I don't think most of the Genesis stories are meant as moral tales; they are explanatory of various conditions of life -- why has one tribe dominance over another, how to explain the different languages, how to explain why pastoral culture is more favored than agricultural, and so on.

#2140

Tommy

My favourite bit in the gospels is the temptation in the desert near Jericoh. Jesus' refusal to turn stones into bread because we need more than bread alone strikes me as missing the point.

Doubting Thomas comes across as a shrewd fella.

Zenaphobe

The story of the woman taken in adultery seems like a good one to me. It kinda appeals to the sensibility that people are often so caught up in finding faults with others that they turn a blind eye to their own failings.

I don't think I would ever claim there is nothing good in the Bible, because as with all things that humans come up with, it is a mixed bag.

Doug Shaver

Yeah, I can do that. And I can do it without much effort, too.

J.F. Gaul

I always thought Jonathan (David's friend, or lover, depending on your interpretation) was a pretty admirable figure. It's just hard to think of "good" examples from a text where the god himself is a self-absorbed, evil twat; if I refreshed my memory of the Bible - which I have not read in years, for better or for worse - I could probably come up with more and better examples.

Dutch_labrat

People read a lot of good stuff in the bible. Forgiving, patience, simplicity, love, caring etc.. Most of this is actual interpretation, it is downright sobering to find out how few "christian values" are actually based on what the bible says.

Of course others read horrible stuff in the bible and live after that. The only conclusion is that there is all kinds of stuff in the bible and people will find what they are looking for.(Seek and you hall find?)

Gawen

How about family values? While I'm sure Greek and Hebrew languages have a word for "value", when you do a search for "family Values" in the Bible, well, it comes up empty. So do a search for "family" and what should you see first?
Leviticus 20:5: “Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people.”

The OT tells us nothing about nurturing our children or loving our spouses. How can a child "honor thy parent/s" that beat him? What does adultery mean when a man is allowed as many wives and concubines as he can afford?

We can read a passages how to handle slaves, how to kill your disobedient child, how to sell your wife or daughter into slavery and how to murder the innocent children of your enemies. Very little in the Old Testament speaks of compassion, truth or honesty. Within it, there is mostly horror, senility, obscenity and destruction.

The New Testament isn't much better. Consider Jesus's apocalyptic views and his ways for salvation - of getting into heaven:

• Abandon all your Earthly ambitions. Deny yourself.
• Hate your Earthly family and give your loyalty to God and your fellow believers.
• Sell everything you own and use the money to do good works.
• Avoid receiving any Earthly reward for your good works.
• Follow the Mosaic Law, both the letter and the spirit of it.
• Abstain from all sin, inside and out;
• Abstain from covetousness
• Abstain from anger
• Abstain from lust.
• Abstain from adultery.
• Do WHATEVER YOU NEED TO DO to abstain from lust.
• Practice strict nonviolent pacifism.
• Do not resist evil.
• Do not strike back.
• Do good to those who hate you. [/list]Give more to those that steal from you[/list]

• Become like children

• Eat Jesus' flesh and drink his blood

• Be born again

• Become a eunuch

• Cut off body parts that cause you to sin

• Practice mercy and forgiveness and peacemaking.
• Do not judge others; Judgment Day will come soon enough.
• Seek to purify your own character, strive to "be perfect, even as your father in Heaven is perfect."
• Over-fulfill the Law seeking to follow the spirit of it as well as the letter.
• Kill those that do not believe.
• Abstain from swearing false oaths.


Never mind Paul and his usurpation of the proto-church. Jesus's way is just as convoluted.

semiopen

Moral lessons might be in the New Testament, but they are few and far between in the Hebrew Bible.

For example, Mark Brettler (I think) said that nowhere in the bible is there a hint that we should emulate the behavior of the patriarchs.

My view is that the attempts to draw moral lessons, etc from the stories are strained and unconvincing.

Clivedurdle

Song of solomon?