Freethought & Rationalism Archive

billywheaton · 01-20-2006, 07:57 AM

:banghead: :banghead: My post concerning the David and Goliath Bible story illustrates my concern about Christian believing in Biblical inerrancy.

my previous post is here: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=151115

The mere hint of possible contradiction to tightly held beliefs, meet strong defensive criticism from Christians.

Why don't Christians want to know the truth? Clearly David had the upperhand. I use this as a challenge to Evangelical Christians and give them an opportunity to test their belief.

We could truly test this theory of whether Goliath had the upperhand or not! If he clearly did not, then Evangelical Christians ought to have the guts to change how they teach this story!!

That is fair enough, is it not?

Evangelical Christians fervently believe that the Bible is the inspired and inerrant Word of God. Most are convinced that no successful refutation has ever been given. Yet, even a cursory review of evidence about the Bible shows precious little to support the claims made by Evangelical Christians. As well, an overwhelming amount of evidence clearly refutes Evangelical claims of Biblical inerrancy (Inerrancy means without error). The evidence puts this belief in the realm of fantasy. Despite the evidence, Evangelical Christians elevate the belief of Biblical inerrancy to the highest level of importance. Indeed, “Teaching straight from the Word of God�? conveys the highest level of approval from an Evangelical Christian. But, this view of Biblical inerrancy remains highly vulnerable. To protect this belief, Evangelical Christians engage in a whole host of activities to avoid an open and honest discourse on their views about the Bible. These behaviors appear harmful to the individual and society. My observations of Evangelical Christians suggest that Christians do not even entertain the notion that their behavior could cause harm. I believe this lack of introspection can create problems. I hypothesize that in order to sustain their belief in Biblical inerrancy, many Evangelical Christians will unwittingly behave like someone with a serious addiction.

billyWheaton from billywheaton.com
http://billywheaton.com :banghead:

graehame · 01-20-2006, 08:21 AM

The mere hint of possible contradiction to tightly held beliefs, meet strong defensive criticism from Christians.
It may be a mistake to lump all self-proclaimed "Christians" together as the target of sweeping generalities about their beliefs or their behaviors.

Why don't Christians want to know the truth?
Some Chrtistians are strongly committed to learning the truth.

Evangelical Christians fervently believe that the Bible is the inspired and inerrant Word of God. Most are convinced that no successful refutation has ever been given.
To be "evangelical" is merely to engage in spreading information, or teaching a system of belief. It appears that what you're referring to is not strictly evangelism, but an extreme fundamentalist position with respect to interpreting Scripture as in all cases literally true. Although many of the people who do this describe themselves as Christians, few of them are well-informed.

even a cursory review of evidence about the Bible shows precious little to support the claims made by Evangelical Christians.
The Bible was not written to provide proof of anything. It was written mainly to open the door to faith.

an overwhelming amount of evidence clearly refutes Evangelical claims of Biblical inerrancy
Regardless of the claims of certain fundamentalists, much of the Bible should be understood figuratively, not literally. Which parts did you have in mind?

this view of Biblical inerrancy remains highly vulnerable.
You are precisely correct. When anyone takes parables & descriptions intended for the benefit of illiterate shepherds & tries to understand them according to the standards of a modern history book, the results will be questionable at best. However, a vast amount of data recorded in the Bible has been proven accurate thru the sciences of archaeology & historical criticism.

To protect this belief, Evangelical Christians engage in a whole host of activities to avoid an open and honest discourse on their views about the Bible.
Have at it. I'm always interested in "an open and honest discourse."

hatsoff · 01-20-2006, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billywheaton

:banghead: :banghead: [FONT="Century Gothic"]My post concerning the David and Goliath Bible story illustrates my concern about Christian believing in Biblical inerrancy.

my previous post is here: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=151115

Yeah, I've seen it. You were unable to show why a "sling" constitutes greater advantage, or why Goliath was unfit for the fight.

Quote:

The mere hint of possible contradiction to tightly held beliefs, meet strong defensive criticism from Christians.

Yes, it does. Is that surprising?

Quote:

Why don't Christians want to know the truth?

For the most part, Christians are like everyone else.

Quote:

Clearly David had the upperhand.

And *clearly* that statement is false.

Quote:

I use this as a challenge to Evangelical Christians and give them an opportunity to test their belief.

Are you insane?

Quote:

We could truly test this theory of whether Goliath had the upperhand or not! If he clearly did not, then Evangelical Christians ought to have the guts to change how they teach this story!!

That is fair enough, is it not?

No! Even if it were a testable hypothesis--and it is not--it still wouldn't matter!

Quote:

Evangelical Christians fervently believe that the Bible is the inspired and inerrant Word of God. Most are convinced that no successful refutation has ever been given.

And they would be right: no "successful refutation" (including your meager contribution) has ever been given.

billywheaton · 01-20-2006, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by graehame

To protect this belief, Evangelical Christians engage in a whole host of activities to avoid an open and honest discourse on their views about the Bible.
Have at it. I'm always interested in "an open and honest discourse."

Unfortunately, many thoughtful people like yourself have little idea how vital the concept of inerrancy is to their churches doctrine. For example, read how high up the list inerrancy is at this church: Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, Illinois.

http://www.willowcreek.org/what_we_believe.asp

This is typical of Evangelical type churches, often these are mega-churches with thousands of well educated members.

If you feel the interpretation of the David and Goliath story is a minor issue, then you should have no problem correcting the matter at your church.

Sincerely,
BillyWheaton from billywheaton.com
http://billywheaton.com

hatsoff · 01-20-2006, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billywheaton

Unfortunately, many thoughtful people like yourself have little idea how vital the concept of inerrancy is to their churches doctrine.

You're absolutely right! Like any other community, Christians are not perfect or supremely intelligent.

Quote:

If you feel the interpretation of the David and Goliath story is a minor issue, then you should have no problem correcting the matter at your church.

What "correcting"?

billywheaton · 01-20-2006, 09:01 AM

at a minimum hatsoff you would have to admit it is a least testable to a degree and secondly I suggest you go see a skilled sling user "sling" a rock. I had an awesome demonstration of this myself in Israel by kids trying to sell me a sling. They were probably about 13 or 14 and could sling those rocks about 200 yards with tremendous velocity and accuracy. David would not have even had to come that close to Goliath to hit him!
Have u ever seen a sling used hatsoff? From your post, I think the answer is no. Regardless, we could Test or different theories and we could even heavily exaggerate the difference. Like we could have a 10 year old boy fight a huge man like "The Rock" or something. Id still take the boy if he was skilled with a sling!

billywheaton · 01-20-2006, 09:05 AM

Even if David only had 25% chance, then the typical Evangelical church is misrepresnting the facts. Going against Goliath has popularly come to mean near insurmountable odds against success!

hatsoff · 01-20-2006, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billywheaton

at a minimum hatsoff you would have to admit it is a least testable to a degree and secondly I suggest you go see a skilled sling user "sling" a rock. I had an awesome demonstration of this myself in Israel by kids trying to sell me a sling. They were probably about 13 or 14 and could sling those rocks about 200 yards with tremendous velocity and accuracy. David would not have even had to come that close to Goliath to hit him!

Have u ever seen a sling used hatsoff? From your post, I think the answer is no. Regardless, we could Test or different theories and we could even heavily exaggerate the difference. Like we could have a 10 year old boy fight a huge man like "The Rock" or something. Id still take the boy if he was skilled with a sling!

Your position is based on speculation.

pharoah · 01-20-2006, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hatsoff

And they would be right: no "successful refutation" (including your meager contribution) has ever been given.

Are you as an atheist (according to your profile) defending inerrancy????

Johnny Skeptic · 01-20-2006, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hatsoff

Your position is based on speculation.

Will you please give us a few examples of positions that are not based on speculation? Are you telling us that you never base anything on speculation? What are your agenda at this forum?

01-20-2006, 07:57 AM	#1
billywheaton Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Cincinnati Posts: 8	Evangelicals lack objectivity if believe inerrancy. :banghead: :banghead: My post concerning the David and Goliath Bible story illustrates my concern about Christian believing in Biblical inerrancy. my previous post is here: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=151115 The mere hint of possible contradiction to tightly held beliefs, meet strong defensive criticism from Christians. Why don't Christians want to know the truth? Clearly David had the upperhand. I use this as a challenge to Evangelical Christians and give them an opportunity to test their belief. We could truly test this theory of whether Goliath had the upperhand or not! If he clearly did not, then Evangelical Christians ought to have the guts to change how they teach this story!! That is fair enough, is it not? Evangelical Christians fervently believe that the Bible is the inspired and inerrant Word of God. Most are convinced that no successful refutation has ever been given. Yet, even a cursory review of evidence about the Bible shows precious little to support the claims made by Evangelical Christians. As well, an overwhelming amount of evidence clearly refutes Evangelical claims of Biblical inerrancy (Inerrancy means without error). The evidence puts this belief in the realm of fantasy. Despite the evidence, Evangelical Christians elevate the belief of Biblical inerrancy to the highest level of importance. Indeed, “Teaching straight from the Word of God�? conveys the highest level of approval from an Evangelical Christian. But, this view of Biblical inerrancy remains highly vulnerable. To protect this belief, Evangelical Christians engage in a whole host of activities to avoid an open and honest discourse on their views about the Bible. These behaviors appear harmful to the individual and society. My observations of Evangelical Christians suggest that Christians do not even entertain the notion that their behavior could cause harm. I believe this lack of introspection can create problems. I hypothesize that in order to sustain their belief in Biblical inerrancy, many Evangelical Christians will unwittingly behave like someone with a serious addiction. billyWheaton from billywheaton.com http://billywheaton.com :banghead:

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01-20-2006, 08:21 AM	#2
graehame Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Louisiana Posts: 7	The mere hint of possible contradiction to tightly held beliefs, meet strong defensive criticism from Christians. It may be a mistake to lump all self-proclaimed "Christians" together as the target of sweeping generalities about their beliefs or their behaviors. Why don't Christians want to know the truth? Some Chrtistians are strongly committed to learning the truth. Evangelical Christians fervently believe that the Bible is the inspired and inerrant Word of God. Most are convinced that no successful refutation has ever been given. To be "evangelical" is merely to engage in spreading information, or teaching a system of belief. It appears that what you're referring to is not strictly evangelism, but an extreme fundamentalist position with respect to interpreting Scripture as in all cases literally true. Although many of the people who do this describe themselves as Christians, few of them are well-informed. even a cursory review of evidence about the Bible shows precious little to support the claims made by Evangelical Christians. The Bible was not written to provide proof of anything. It was written mainly to open the door to faith. an overwhelming amount of evidence clearly refutes Evangelical claims of Biblical inerrancy Regardless of the claims of certain fundamentalists, much of the Bible should be understood figuratively, not literally. Which parts did you have in mind? this view of Biblical inerrancy remains highly vulnerable. You are precisely correct. When anyone takes parables & descriptions intended for the benefit of illiterate shepherds & tries to understand them according to the standards of a modern history book, the results will be questionable at best. However, a vast amount of data recorded in the Bible has been proven accurate thru the sciences of archaeology & historical criticism. To protect this belief, Evangelical Christians engage in a whole host of activities to avoid an open and honest discourse on their views about the Bible. Have at it. I'm always interested in "an open and honest discourse."

01-20-2006, 09:01 AM	#6
billywheaton Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Cincinnati Posts: 8	at a minimum hatsoff you would have to admit it is a least testable to a degree and secondly I suggest you go see a skilled sling user "sling" a rock. I had an awesome demonstration of this myself in Israel by kids trying to sell me a sling. They were probably about 13 or 14 and could sling those rocks about 200 yards with tremendous velocity and accuracy. David would not have even had to come that close to Goliath to hit him! Have u ever seen a sling used hatsoff? From your post, I think the answer is no. Regardless, we could Test or different theories and we could even heavily exaggerate the difference. Like we could have a 10 year old boy fight a huge man like "The Rock" or something. Id still take the boy if he was skilled with a sling!

01-20-2006, 09:05 AM	#7
billywheaton Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Cincinnati Posts: 8	Even if David only had 25% chance, then the typical Evangelical church is misrepresnting the facts. Going against Goliath has popularly come to mean near insurmountable odds against success!

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