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PhilosopherJay · 07-12-2009, 10:44 AM

Hi Ben,

I guess the main question is the interpretation of this line: "He composed 20 books on the organization of the Jews, their emigration, their High Priests, the wars against the Romans and the siege of Jerusalem."

Antiquities does concern information on the organiziation of the Jews, their immigration and their High Priests. However, it is a stretch to say that their are books on "the wars against the Romans and the siege of Jerusalem" within "Antiquities". The 20 books we have stop short of the beginning of the war and the siege of Jerusalem. When we see it in this light, it becomes apparent that Agapius had never read Antiquities, but was under the impression that there were 20 separate books covering the five subjects of 1) organization of the Jews, 2) Jewish emigration, 3) Jewish high priests, 4) The Wars against the Romans, and 5) the Siege of Jerusalem.

Regarding Agapius' quotes and references to Josephus, the first passage I citted was fro this:

Quote:

The length of the ark was three hundred cubits, its width fifty cubits and its height thirty cubits; the ark had three levels. Josephus the Jew, the scholar, who wrote about the destruction of Jerusalem after the Ascension of the Messiah Our Lord, affirms that the planks of the ark were in the town of Afamea. Abidenos and Alexander (Polyhistor), Greek philosophers, affirm that Kronos was the first man; he showed and revealed to Ksis that on the 15 of the month of Haziran a great inundation and flood would take place. When Ksis understood what he was being told, he left, moving by water towards the region of Armenia in a wooden boat. They claim that some planks of this boat are on the mountain of Ararat, and that they cure the inhabitants of this country until this day 3. As for the place where the ark stopped, this account agrees with that of the Torah. 344 years after the birth of Noah the second thousand of years of the history of the world was completed.

Josephus has this in Antiquities 1.5

Quote:

So after he had staid seven more days, he sent the living creatures out of the ark; and both he and his family went out, when he also sacrificed to God, and feasted with his companions. However, the Armenians call this place, (GREEK) (16) The Place of Descent; for the ark being saved in that place, its remains are shown there by the inhabitants to this day. 6. Now all the writers of barbarian histories make mention of this flood, and of this ark; among whom is Berosus the Chaldean. For when he is describing the circumstances of the flood, he goes on thus: "It is said there is still some part of this ship in Armenia, at the mountain of the Cordyaeans; and that some people carry off pieces of the bitumen, which they take away, and use chiefly as amulets for the averting of mischiefs." Hieronymus the Egyptian also, who wrote the Phoenician Antiquities, and Mnaseas, and a great many more, make mention of the same. Nay, Nicolaus of Damascus, in his ninety-sixth book, hath a particular relation about them; where he speaks thus: "There is a great mountain in Armenia, over Minyas, called Baris, upon which it is reported that many who fled at the time of the Deluge were saved; and that one who was carried in an ark came on shore upon the top of it; and that the remains of the timber were a great while preserved. This might be the man about whom Moses the legislator of the Jews wrote."

Agapius says that Jospehus, "affirms that the planks of the ark were in the town of Afamea." If we assume that Afamea means "Place of Descent" then the information is from Josephus, but Josephus is not being named as the writer of Antiquities, but as the Jew, the scholar, who wrote about the destruction of Jerusalem after the Ascension of the Messiah Our Lord

Josephus goes on to quote other sources to confirm his Noah's ark in Armania story, as does Agapius. However, Agapius quotes other sources than Josephus to back up his story. This suggests that Agapius is not getting
his source directly from Josephus, but through an intermediate source on Noah's ark that just happened to mention Josephus.

The important thing here is that he mentions Josephus in connection with his work on "The Destruction of Jerusalem" which is the alternative name for the Wars of the Jews. This means that in references 1,4 and 5 he mentions the name of this work, and in reference # 3, he quotes from this work. So in four of the five references, he mentions or quotes from Wars/Destruction of the. Jews. We have a reference to the "The Evil of the Jews" in the second reference. If we translate this as "Organization" or "Antiquities," this would be the only time in his five mentions of Josephus that he does not reference or quote Wars/Destruction of the Jews. It would therefore be an anomaly. He would be doing something here that he does not do in his five other mentions of Josephus. On the other hand, if we translate "Evil of the Jews" as "Wars of the Jews," then that would make all five time that he is associating Josephus with the work "Wars of the Jews." There would be no anomaly.

Besides this, logically the destruction of Jerusalem would have to be considered an evil. The evil of the Jews is synonymous with the War of the Jews or the Destruction of Jerusalem. It seems to be a combination of the idea that War was an evil for the Jews and the destruction of Jews was an evil for the Jews. Agapius is taking the two alternative names for Josephus' work "War"/"Destruction" and combining them using the word Evil to refer to both war and destruction.

On the other hand "The Evil of the Jews" cannot logically be a reference to the Organization or Governance of the Jews.

So to accept Pines suggestion and translate the word "Evil" in "Organization," we have to create an anomay in the structure and we must ignore the reasonableness of translating it "Evil" as a combination of War and Destruction.

The only reason to do this is to save Agapius from making a mistake in his attribution of the TF to the Wars instead of Antiquities. When the structural and logical evidence points to the fact that he did make such a mistake, their is no valid reason to presume that he did not attribute the TF to Wars/Destruction

I am curious what the French words were in the second and fifth reference to Josephus that Roger translated into English.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi Ben,

Thanks for this. It is quite helpful.

Note that Agapius refers to Josephus five times:

This seems to give us a clue as to the correct translation. If we assume that "War of the Jews" is the correct translation, then we have five cases that Agapius refers to or quotes from the work "War of the Jews".

Translating it as "Governance" a reference to Antiquities would create an anomaly.

Quoting three times from Wars and twice from Antiquities is not an anomaly. It is a statistic.

This does not make any sense to me. Can you explain it, please? Agapius says that Josephus wrote 20 books on the topics he mentions (organization of the Jews, their emigration, their high priests, the wars against the Romans and the siege of Jerusalem); all those topics are present in the Antiquities. He is obviously aware of a work by Josephus in 20 books that contained those topics; Antiquities fits the bill.

Sorry, I am not following. What word, exactly, are you assuming is the same between the second and the fifth reference? (According to the summary of Pines that I gave you, we already know which word designating the Josephan work in question appears in the second reference and what word appears in the fifth. Unless you are saying that Pines is mistaken about the actual words used in the Arabic text.)

Could it also be a coincidence that most other texts of Josephus places the Testimonium in the Antiquities and Agapius apparently places it there too? If Agapius meant the Wars, then he is agreeing with the Slavonic Josephus. If he meant the Antiquities, then he is agreeing with the rest of the witnesses to the text of Josephus. This is, at best, a wash for your overall point.

Quote:

Apparently there is a Jewish War manuscript which contains the TF. (http://enc.slider.com/Enc/Testimonium_Flavianum). Does anybody know which one it is?

That is a good question, and one I do not know the answer to.

Ben.

Ben C Smith · 07-13-2009, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

We have a reference to the "The Evil of the Jews" in the second reference. If we translate this as "Organization" or "Antiquities," this would be the only time in his five mentions of Josephus that he does not reference or quote Wars/Destruction of the Jews. It would therefore be an anomaly.

Quoting from Wars four times and from Antiquities one time is, again, not an anomaly.

More to the point, however, your use of the word translate in the above, as well as in the following...:

Quote:

He would be doing something here that he does not do in his five other mentions of Josephus. On the other hand, if we translate "Evil of the Jews" as "Wars of the Jews," then that would make all five time that he is associating Josephus with the work "Wars of the Jews."

...is one main point of contention. Pines is not translating evil of the Jews as organization (or governance, or antiquities) of the Jews. He is, like Vasiliev before him, emending the text, not translating it.

Quote:

Besides this, logically the destruction of Jerusalem would have to be considered an evil.

This is where you are not understanding what Vasiliev and Pines are doing. Both of them are claiming that Agapius did not write the term evil in this connection. Both of them are emending the text, just in two different ways.

Ben.

vid · 07-13-2009, 03:50 PM

Thank you Roger, finally

Roger Pearse · 07-14-2009, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

Thank you Roger, finally

You're welcome. Glad to see that it has stirred some interest. It must be better for us all to see the work as a whole, and not just the snippets we've had heretofore.

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07-13-2009, 03:50 PM	#23
vid Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Myjava, Slovakia Posts: 384	Thank you Roger, finally

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