Duke Leto

:lol:

I appreciate you generous concession to my sensibilities, DCH. I'll note I never said I thought post comment quotations were somehow wrong, just not what I was used to.

I thought that both film and miniseries mishandled the source material. I'll say that no one reads Herbert for the beauty of the language or the depth of the characterization. You generally look at and are impressed by the thought and work he's put into his universe. The same is true of Tolkien to a lesser extent.

At this point I'd like to speculate as to what the TSA's plans are in case a thread derails in a populated area. Especially if the thread is carrying hazardous memes.

DCHindley

I think it has to do with the Platonic concept of individual souls who are refined through each succeeding reincarnation to the point where the soul can fly free up to their natural home "in the stars" (i.e., on the border to the highest space which exists without time, where the world soul and the ideas/forms hang out).

The concept of a dissolution of the world is Stoic. Plato did not hop on that train, though.

The books of the Prophets contain numerous references to "that day" when God will destroy the enemies of his people and institute a new world/age. I have all the "OT" passages like this that I could find marked in one bible somewhere (I think it was the NAB study bible). Someday I'll drag it out and create a RTF file of them all.

One could naturally ask oneself: "How will God's people alive at this time escape the destruction?" One answer: "God's people will be given wings to fly above the dissolving face of the earth to watch the destruction of the wicked, and when the reformation is complete they will be able to walk without heat or cold to make them faint, and run (hunting?) and not get weary.

1EN 45:3-5
3 On that day Mine Elect One shall sit on the throne of glory And shall try their works, And their places of rest shall be innumerable.And their souls shall grow strong within them when they see Mine elect ones, And those who have called upon My glorious name:
4 Then will I cause Mine Elect One to dwell among them.And I will transform the heaven and make it an eternal blessing and light:
5 And I will transform the earth and make it a blessing:And I will cause Mine elect ones to dwell upon it: But the sinners and evil-doers shall not set foot thereon.

DCH

sotto voce

Christianity tends to make life difficult. Difficult for those who want an easy life at the expense of a majority, anyway. It is so challenging that some people keep an iron chariot in their garage, with a horse in the back yard, or even the front garden. These are the only sure means of securing oneself against the predatory Christian deity, it seems.

But, as prophylaxis, society is encouraged to take a Platonic view of government. Ideally, philosophers become kings and rule, though in practice one may have to make to with a ruler with somewhat less appreciation of poetry and stuff, and rather more of power management, via legions, secret police, or gulags. A gentle introduction to this polity is made by the use of rabbis, who may stealthily get independent minds inured to the idea of taking orders. Relentless suggestions of this nature can eventually persuade that it is perfectly normal for a corrupted man to tell a decent man what to do. In time, this can evolve into a full hierarchy of Revered clergy, an ideal tool for certain types of Platonic government; like that of General Franco, a well-known, celebrated philosopher-king.

Cesc

That could be it. This has made me think about eschatology in rabbinic literature, though, something I havn't given much thought. The eschatology of the Jewish apocalypticism such as Enochic literature and eventually Christianity must have come mainly from the prophetic eschatology that you mention, "that day", "the day of wrath", "the day of YHWH" and so forth. In Christianity it's part of the foundation, but what about rabbinic literature? Is it just marginal?

stephan huller

Samaritanism = "the day of Vengeance and Recompense." The concept of a yom neqam is found in the Masoretic bible only in Isaiah 34:8, 61:2, 63:4 and Proverbs 6:34, but not in the Pentateuch. The Samaritan reading of Deut 32:35 and LXX offers an important variant. The Samaritans (cf. Memar Marqa 4:12) base their belief in the Day of Vengeance and recompense on their text of Deuteronomy 32:35 where, instead of the Masoretic texts li neqam, "vengeance is mine", they add two letters to the Hebrew word to make it lyom "for the day." In Qumran (1QS 9:23) the concept of yom neqam is used in a similar sense without any reference to a Biblical source text. This, together with the variant in SP Deut 32:35, points to the eschatology developed by the Biblical religion in the third-second century BCE.

stephan huller

But back to the main point. Isaiah 40:31 is translated in the King James edition as:

But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength they shall mount up with wings as eagles they shall run and not be weary and they shall walk and not faint

וְקֹויֵ֤ יְהוָה֙ יַחֲלִ֣יפוּ כֹ֔חַ יַעֲל֥וּ אֵ֖בֶר כַּנְּשָׁרִ֑ים יָר֙וּצוּ֙ וְלֹ֣א יִיגָ֔עוּ יֵלְכ֖וּ וְלֹ֥א יִיעָֽפוּ׃ פ

וְקֹויֵ֤ יְהוָה֙ יַחֲלִ֣יפוּ כֹ֔חַ = those who wait for YHWH will gain new strength

יַעֲל֥וּ אֵ֖בֶר כַּנְּשָׁרִ֑ים = they will put forth wings like eagles

The question has always been is יַעֲל֥וּ 'put forth' or with the King James 'rise up.' The reason 'put forth' should be accepted is that there is no preposition before אֵ֖בֶר, the LXX rendering πτεροφυήσουσιν, 'they will grow wings', and the Targum's 'and they will be renewed in their youth like the sprouting (of plumage) that rises up upon the wings of eagles'.

I think this begins to support the underlying idea that a common eschatological myth about the righteous growing wings made its way into Platonism and the early Israelite religion.

aeebee50

I have a T-shirt with an eagle on front and that quote on the back. It is fund to wear while I ride my Harley.

stephan huller

i don't know your real name but a nesher can also be a cipher for the name Mark hence perhaps irenaeus's identification of Mark as the eagle (n$r -1 = mrq)

sotto voce

Fundies rule, eh.

Cesc

Revelations 12 comes to mind, the woman clothed with the sun giving birth to the messiah, and she is given the wings of the eagle to flee from the dragon into the wilderness. This little tale in Rev 12 could very likely have been a Jewish tale later being made into a Christian text in Rev, with the woman thus originally representing the Jewish people or the righteous getting eagle's wings in this eschatological drama. Although Rev 12 likely has its inspiration in the Greek myth of the birth of Apollo and Leto and Python, and the eagle's wings into the wilderness are usually understood as a reference to Ex 19:4, it could be a late example of the same idea.