Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 06-05-2006, 07:06 AM

I aked in jmtp

Quote:

Is it legitimate to translate "christians' as for example used by Pliny, more generally as "messianists"?

Do we have a history of the term? Who used it when where why? Does it have to mean follower of Jesus?

Might it mean messianist?

Clivedurdle · 06-06-2006, 05:28 AM

If we could have some comment on this word christian it might shed some light on several threads here! Is it not very dangerous to assume if several writers use this term they are talking about the same thing, especially as it might be a generic label for people with messianic expectations?

First rule - define your terms!

robto · 06-06-2006, 11:26 AM

Acts says the term was first used at Antioch, but this is probably wrong because Paul doesn't use it.

The earliest non-Xn references know them as Christians (Josephus c. 90 AD, Pliny c. 110 AD).

Beyond that, there's not much to say.

Clivedurdle · 06-07-2006, 01:02 AM

But can we work out what people might have meant by the term? Were they talking about the followers of a person or was it another term for people like for example essenes?

robto · 06-07-2006, 06:03 AM

Josephus connects the term explicitly with Jesus, but the passage is notoriously corrupt, so it's hard to say.

Tacitus (c. 110 AD) connects the term with Christus, who was executed under Pontius Pilate. This, too leaves little room for doubt.

Pliny just mentions them singing hymns to Christ "as to a god", so its unclear if this group is connected with Jesus. Given the other two references, though, it seems unlikely that this was a different sort of "Christian".

post tenebras lux · 06-07-2006, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robto

Josephus connects the term explicitly with Jesus, but the passage is notoriously corrupt, so it's hard to say.

Tacitus (c. 110 AD) connects the term with Christus, who was executed under Pontius Pilate. This, too leaves little room for doubt.

Pliny just mentions them singing hymns to Christ "as to a god", so its unclear if this group is connected with Jesus. Given the other two references, though, it seems unlikely that this was a different sort of "Christian".

But what's our oldest copy of that part of Tacitus please? And/Or, when was the first time another writer mentioned that part of Tacitus?

Clivedurdle · 06-07-2006, 02:16 PM

And references to Christus don't get us anywhere! Does the Birth certificate in the Bethlehem registry office read Jesus Christ?

Was Christ a name?

(Wasn't Chrestus mentioned somewhere?)

post tenebras lux · 06-08-2006, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

(Wasn't Chrestus mentioned somewhere?)

Come on now Clive, that's just a typo![/apologetics]

andrewcriddle · 06-08-2006, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by post tenebras lux

But what's our oldest copy of that part of Tacitus please? And/Or, when was the first time another writer mentioned that part of Tacitus?

Our oldest copy of the Annals of Tacitus (which contains the passage and is the apparent source of all surviving manuscripts of the Annals) is dated c 1100 CE.

The first allusion to this passage is in the Chronicle or Sacred History of Sulpicius Severus written c 405 CE.

Andrew Criddle

Clivedurdle · 06-09-2006, 02:41 AM

Was the term christian used without reference to Christ or Chrestus? What are the links with essenes, gallileans, whatever else these cults were labelled?

Is Messianist legitimate?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Jesus

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06-06-2006, 05:28 AM	#2
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	If we could have some comment on this word christian it might shed some light on several threads here! Is it not very dangerous to assume if several writers use this term they are talking about the same thing, especially as it might be a generic label for people with messianic expectations? First rule - define your terms!

06-06-2006, 11:26 AM	#3
robto Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Maryland Posts: 701	Acts says the term was first used at Antioch, but this is probably wrong because Paul doesn't use it. The earliest non-Xn references know them as Christians (Josephus c. 90 AD, Pliny c. 110 AD). Beyond that, there's not much to say.

06-07-2006, 01:02 AM	#4
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	But can we work out what people might have meant by the term? Were they talking about the followers of a person or was it another term for people like for example essenes?

06-07-2006, 06:03 AM	#5
robto Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Maryland Posts: 701	Josephus connects the term explicitly with Jesus, but the passage is notoriously corrupt, so it's hard to say. Tacitus (c. 110 AD) connects the term with Christus, who was executed under Pontius Pilate. This, too leaves little room for doubt. Pliny just mentions them singing hymns to Christ "as to a god", so its unclear if this group is connected with Jesus. Given the other two references, though, it seems unlikely that this was a different sort of "Christian".

06-07-2006, 02:16 PM	#7
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	And references to Christus don't get us anywhere! Does the Birth certificate in the Bethlehem registry office read Jesus Christ? Was Christ a name? (Wasn't Chrestus mentioned somewhere?)

06-09-2006, 02:41 AM	#10
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Was the term christian used without reference to Christ or Chrestus? What are the links with essenes, gallileans, whatever else these cults were labelled? Is Messianist legitimate? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Jesus

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