Freethought & Rationalism Archive

PhilosopherJay · 08-05-2010, 07:54 PM

There are four, five or six post resurrection stories/scenes of Jesus' where he is not recognized by people who should know him. In each of these cases, there is no apparent reason why Jesus should not be recognized by these people. Obviously, Jesus wants people to see that he has been resurrected and quickly tells or shows them. Why do we get all these non/recognition scenes? I have a theory, but I would like to hear other people's theories on why Jesus is not recognizable when resurrected?

Here are the relevant passages:

Quote:

Mark:

16.12After this he appeared in another form to two of them, as they were walking into the country. 16.13And they went back and told the rest,

Luke
24.13 That very day two of them were going to a village named Emma'us, about seven miles from Jerusalem, 24.14 and talking with each other about all these things that had happened. 24.15 While they were talking and discussing together, Jesus himself drew near and went with them. 24.16 But their eyes were kept from recognizing him. 24.17 And he said to them, "What is this conversation which you are holding with each other as you walk?" And they stood still, looking sad. 24.18 Then one of them, named Cle'opas, answered him, "Are you the only visitor to Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?" 24.19 And he said to them, "What things?" And they said to him, "Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, 24.20 and how our chief priests and rulers delivered him up to be condemned to death, and crucified him. 24.21 But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since this happened. 24.22 Moreover, some women of our company amazed us. They were at the tomb early in the morning 24.23 and did not find his body; and they came back saying that they had even seen a vision of angels, who said that he was alive. 24.24 Some of those who were with us went to the tomb, and found it just as the women had said; but him they did not see." 24.25 And he said to them, "O foolish men, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 24.26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?" 24.27 And beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. 24.28 So they drew near to the village to which they were going. He appeared to be going further, 24.29 but they constrained him, saying, "Stay with us, for it is toward evening and the day is now far spent." So he went in to stay with them. 24.30 When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them. 24.31 And their eyes were opened and they recognized him; and he vanished out of their sight…

24.36 As they were saying this, Jesus himself stood among them. 24.37 But they were startled and frightened, and supposed that they saw a spirit. 24.38 And he said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do questionings rise in your hearts? 24.39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have." 24.40 24.41 And while they still disbelieved for joy, and wondered, he said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?" 24.42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 24.43 and he took it and ate before them. 24.44 Then he said to them, "These are my words which I spoke to you, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled." 24.45 Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures, 24.46 and said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 24.47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 24.48 You are witnesses of these things. 24.49 And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but stay in the city, until you are clothed with power from on high."

John:
20.14 Saying this, she turned round and saw Jesus standing, but she did not know that it was Jesus. 20.15 Jesus said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping? Whom do you seek?" Supposing him to be the gardener, she said to him, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away." 20.16 Jesus said to her, "Mary." She turned and said to him in Hebrew, "Rab-bo'ni!" (which means Teacher). 20.17 Jesus said to her, "Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father;

21.4 Just as day was breaking, Jesus stood on the beach; yet the disciples did not know that it was Jesus. 21.5 Jesus said to them, "Children, have you any fish?" They answered him, "No." 21.6 He said to them, "Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some." So they cast it, and now they were not able to haul it in, for the quantity of fish. 21.7 That disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, "It is the Lord!" When Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he put on his clothes, for he was stripped for work, and sprang into the sea. 21.8 But the other disciples came in the boat, dragging the net full of fish, for they were not far from the land, but about a hundred yards off. 21.9 When they got out on land, they saw a charcoal fire there, with fish lying on it, and bread. 21.10 Jesus said to them, "Bring some of the fish that you have just caught." 21.11 So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled the net ashore, full of large fish, a hundred and fifty-three of them; and although there were so many, the net was not torn. 21.12 Jesus said to them, "Come and have breakfast." Now none of the disciples dared ask him, "Who are you?" They knew it was the Lord.

Note that in John 21.12, it says, "none of the disciples dared ask him, "Who are you?" This implies that he was in a different form from the form that Jesus looked like when he was alive, clearly he did not look like Jesus]

Warmly

Philosopher Jay

stephan huller · 08-05-2010, 08:04 PM

It's because the Christ resurrected from the tomb wasn't Jesus. Read Irenaeus's many statements on this with regards to his heretical opponents belief in this idea but especially this one related to Secret Mark (at least according to FF Bruce):

Those, again, who separate Jesus from Christ, alleging that Christ remained impassible, but that it was Jesus who suffered, preferring the Gospel by Mark, if they read it with a love of truth, may have their errors rectified.[AH iii.11.7]

I could cite all the different passages where Irenaeus describes the heretical application of this formula to various scenes (i.e. the enthronement) but that would take us too far afield.

Great thread, Jay!

spamandham · 08-05-2010, 10:21 PM

I would say it's because the catholicizing movement that created the gospels as we know them wanted to appeal to all the various messianic cults and their stories. The simplest way to do that is to have Jesus be a spiritual cuttlefish. It allows all the false messiahs to be the 1 true messiah. Christianity is not the only cult to have devised this concept. It seems to be a staple of reincarnation/resurrection type cults.

Doug Shaver · 08-05-2010, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

I have a theory, but I would like to hear other people's theories on why Jesus is not recognizable when resurrected?

I think the authors were trying to make a point about people who don't regard "God said it, I believe it, that settles it" as a cogent apologetic argument.

Transient · 08-05-2010, 10:38 PM

God hadn't done many resurrections at that stage and forgot to get a photo to work from and just had the smelly old carcass and the bones.
He did his best from memory but it's fading fast these days so it wasn't a real good job - still he got the guy to do a few tricks like passing thru walls and that kind of stuff and it seemed to work on most of them.
Just gotta hope he backs up his data now and then I guess otherwise you might miss out when it comes time.

aa5874 · 08-05-2010, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

.....Note that in John 21.12, it says, "none of the disciples dared ask him, "Who are you?" This implies that he was in a different form from the form that Jesus looked like when he was alive, clearly he did not look like Jesus]

Warmly

Philosopher Jay

But, look at John 21.14 which follows immediately it is claimed that Jesus was then SEEN three times by the disciples after he was raised from the dead.

Joh 21:14 -

Quote:

This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.

It would appear to me that the author of gJohn 21 is not trying to claim Jesus was in a different form but that when Jesus spoke to the disciples that they quickly recognised his voice and did not have to ask who he was.

mountainman · 08-05-2010, 11:12 PM

Hi Philosopher Jay,

A very interesting question ....

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Why do we get all these non/recognition scenes? I have a theory, but I would like to hear other people's theories on why Jesus is not recognizable when resurrected?

In a word - Dénouement, as a literary ploy to balance and steady the pathos of invincible belief.

The classic example of Dénouement in the christian literature must fall outside the NT Canon and rest within the Nag Hammadi Codex 6, Story number One - the Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles. Here the apostles fail to recognise Jesus (in Lithargoel) on a number of occassions, even after meeting him, and receiving instructions from him on how to get to the mythological city of Nine Gates, where the pearl of priceless wisdom is to be found by anyone who would journey inside the gates of this city. Notably, the apostles tarry at the gates, and do not enter the city. Jesus (if that's who Lithargoel is meant to be) sends them back in disgust.

Gandalf came back from being The Grey to being The White after falling with the Balrog into the abyss. Gandalf looked different and other-worldly because its true that he was a wizard of the highest excalabur. Gandalf fought better - he had big magic.

It clearly appears in retrospect however that Jesus relied upon the Roman Emperor Constantine, as a loyal fighting servant, who would finally have the guts to stand up and fight for his victory over death, Roman taxes and those good-for-nothing Pagan religions.

I will be interested to learn of your theory in this region.

aa5874 · 08-05-2010, 11:27 PM

Another verse in gJohn which shows that the author is not claiming that Jesus was in a different form is John 20.27

Joh 20:27 -

Quote:

Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

It would therefore seem that the authors are claiming Jesus looked completely like a human being.

In gLuke the travellers who met Jesus seemed to think that they were in conversation with just a human being until he started to talk to them.

PhilosopherJay · 08-06-2010, 07:20 AM

Hi aa5874,

The problem is not that people did not recognize his form as human, but that they did not recognize him as Jesus, a person they would be expected to recognize immediately on sight.

I tend to think that the scene in gJohn does indicate that Jesus did look different:

Quote:

21.12 Jesus said to them, "Come and have breakfast." Now none of the disciples dared ask him, "Who are you?" They knew it was the Lord. 21.13 Jesus came and took the bread and gave it to them, and so with the fish. 21.14 This was now the third time that Jesus was revealed to the disciples after he was raised from the dead.

Since this was the third time, the disciples were finally catching on that when they saw a stranger who acted like Jesus, they should just accept that it was Jesus and not ask "Who the hell are you?"

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Another verse in gJohn which shows that the author is not claiming that Jesus was in a different form is John 20.27

Joh 20:27 -

Quote:

Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

It would therefore seem that the authors are claiming Jesus looked completely like a human being.

In gLuke the travellers who met Jesus seemed to think that they were in conversation with just a human being until he started to talk to them.

PhilosopherJay · 08-06-2010, 07:48 AM

Hi Peter,

Thanks for reminding me of the "The Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles," this is indeed another resurrection appearance, where Jesus is not recognized

Quote:

And I, Peter, inquired about the name of this city from residents who were standing on the dock. A man among them answered, saying, "The name of this city is Habitation, that is, Foundation [...] endurance." And the leader among them holding the palm branch at the edge of the dock. And after we had gone ashore with the baggage, I went into the city, to seek advice about lodging.

A man came out wearing a cloth bound around his waist, and a gold belt girded it. Also a napkin was tied over his chest, extending over his shoulders and covering his head and his hands.

I was staring at the man, because he was beautiful in his form and stature. There were four parts of his body that I saw: the soles of his feet and a part of his chest and the palms of his hands and his visage. These things I was able to see. A book cover like (those of) my books was in his left hand. A staff of styrax wood was in his right hand. His voice was resounding as he slowly spoke, crying out in the city, "Pearlsl Pearlsl"

I, indeed, thought he was a man of that city. I said to him, "My brother and my friend!" He answered me, then, saying, "Rightly did you say, 'My brother and my friend.' What is it you seek from me?" I said to him, "I ask you about lodging for me and the brothers also, because we are strangers here." He said to me, "For this reason have I myself just said, 'My brother and my friend,' because I also am a fellow stranger like you."

And having said these things, he cried out, "Pearls! Pearls!"

I'll wait for some more responses before giving my theory.

Warmly,

Philsopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Hi Philosopher Jay,

A very interesting question ....

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Why do we get all these non/recognition scenes? I have a theory, but I would like to hear other people's theories on why Jesus is not recognizable when resurrected?

In a word - Dénouement, as a literary ploy to balance and steady the pathos of invincible belief.

The classic example of Dénouement in the christian literature must fall outside the NT Canon and rest within the Nag Hammadi Codex 6, Story number One - the Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles. Here the apostles fail to recognise Jesus (in Lithargoel) on a number of occassions, even after meeting him, and receiving instructions from him on how to get to the mythological city of Nine Gates, where the pearl of priceless wisdom is to be found by anyone who would journey inside the gates of this city. Notably, the apostles tarry at the gates, and do not enter the city. Jesus (if that's who Lithargoel is meant to be) sends them back in disgust.

Gandalf came back from being The Grey to being The White after falling with the Balrog into the abyss. Gandalf looked different and other-worldly because its true that he was a wizard of the highest excalabur. Gandalf fought better - he had big magic.

It clearly appears in retrospect however that Jesus relied upon the Roman Emperor Constantine, as a loyal fighting servant, who would finally have the guts to stand up and fight for his victory over death, Roman taxes and those good-for-nothing Pagan religions.

I will be interested to learn of your theory in this region.

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08-05-2010, 08:04 PM	#2
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	It's because the Christ resurrected from the tomb wasn't Jesus. Read Irenaeus's many statements on this with regards to his heretical opponents belief in this idea but especially this one related to Secret Mark (at least according to FF Bruce): Those, again, who separate Jesus from Christ, alleging that Christ remained impassible, but that it was Jesus who suffered, preferring the Gospel by Mark, if they read it with a love of truth, may have their errors rectified.[AH iii.11.7] I could cite all the different passages where Irenaeus describes the heretical application of this formula to various scenes (i.e. the enthronement) but that would take us too far afield. Great thread, Jay!

08-05-2010, 10:21 PM	#3
spamandham Contributor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,525	I would say it's because the catholicizing movement that created the gospels as we know them wanted to appeal to all the various messianic cults and their stories. The simplest way to do that is to have Jesus be a spiritual cuttlefish. It allows all the false messiahs to be the 1 true messiah. Christianity is not the only cult to have devised this concept. It seems to be a staple of reincarnation/resurrection type cults.

08-05-2010, 10:38 PM	#5
Transient Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 412	God hadn't done many resurrections at that stage and forgot to get a photo to work from and just had the smelly old carcass and the bones. He did his best from memory but it's fading fast these days so it wasn't a real good job - still he got the guy to do a few tricks like passing thru walls and that kind of stuff and it seemed to work on most of them. Just gotta hope he backs up his data now and then I guess otherwise you might miss out when it comes time.

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