Freethought & Rationalism Archive

simon kole · 06-25-2011, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saramago

It's clear that a lot of effort went into your response, simon kole. I appreciate that, but on the other hand Christians with different beliefs have also been able to use various lines from various parts of scripture to support their views, waving away (with some explanation or another) the parts that don't seem to fit.

Thanks, Saramago.

But I think the two presentations,

The Basic Doctrinal Contradiction of the Bible, in post #35 @ http://www.freeratio.org/showpost.php?p=6836009 , and

The Basic Logical Contradition of the Bible, in post #145 @ http://www.freeratio.org/showpost.php?p=6840554,

pretty much reconcile the major doctrinal beliefs of Christians, which they support by various verses
from various parts of Scripture.
The Scriptures of these two presentations include all the various Scriptures used by Christians to support their different views, and reconcile (not overturn) their differing views.

So differing Christian beliefs, such as Arminianism and Calvinism, don't stand in distinction from these presentations, they are encompassed in these presentations.

Now if you want to extend comprehensiveness to (erroneous) doctrine built on symbolic prophecy, which plainly contradicts the clear didactics of the NT,
that is overturned in my presentation @ http://www.freeratio.org/showpost.php?p=6832616,
in the middle of my response to another post.

These three presentations, then, pretty much cover the water front of the different Christian beliefs.
They are not dimissable on the basis of being just another Christian view.

Quote:

And of course there's also the problem that most of us here don't accept the Bible as either a coherent, internally consistent document or The Truth, but rather as a collection of poetry, short stories, biased histories, and propaganda.

I fully understand that. My only purpose is to present what the texts say, for the purpose of being informed,
rather than uninformed, regarding the issue of divine justice in the Scriptures.

dockeen · 06-25-2011, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Scripture says that is what God ordained.

I love the way xtians think that using words like "scripture" and "ordained" give
a vacuous reply like this one intellectual weight.

Really, your answer to a question that reflects fundamentally on your god's
character (and by entension yours in whoreshipping him) is to say

"That's what the bible says he wanted"

dockeen · 06-25-2011, 05:28 PM

Quote:

That is not alleged in Scripture.

Ahhh, so he DOES want robots! He cares nothing about a free will decision
for him (How many times have I heard THAT one used from the pulpit, they
must have all been lying eh?)

By the way, using the term scripture, as I have pointed out to you before,
means NOTHING to me. It is simply a ploy on your part to give your point
of view an intelligence and moral integrity that it sorely lacks.

simon kole · 06-25-2011, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarhyn

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarhyn

BLAH BLAH BLAH INTELLECTUAL NOISE

Relax, calm down, Jarhyn.

Are you unaware that it is inappropriate to shout your responses?

My purview is the content of the Biblical texts.

I am responding to a question presented to me about the apparent contradiction between the sovereignty of God and the moral responsibility of man as presented in the Scriptural texts.

Sorry you don't like the parameters of the question, nor the parameters of the response. But your exposure to the background of this discussion appears quite "limited."

shouting is perfectly acceptable when one side appears to not be listening. You still fail to address the PROVEN FACT that the bible is suspect, and the PROVEN FACT that quoting the bible is meaningless without providing corroboration consisting of publicly observable phenomenon.

What part of "my purview is limited to internal contradictions in the texts" do you not understand?

Evidently you are the one not listening (having no knowledge on the background of my addressing apparent Biblical contradictions here) that my purview is limited to internal contradictions in the texts of the Bible. Whether the texts are right, wrong, or indifferent is irrelevant to any contradiction among themselves. My purview does not extend to any perceived contradictions of the texts external to the Bible.

Now relax, you're heading for a stroke.
And I don't think it necessary to repeatedly explain this issue to you.

Quote:

You have failed to provide such corroborating evidence therefore all you have succeeded in doing is continuing to spout meaningless intellectual noise.

simon kole · 06-25-2011, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dockeen

Quote:

Scripture says that is what God ordained.

I love the way xtians think that using words like "scripture" and "ordained" give
a vacuous reply like this one intellectual weight.

Really, your answer to a question that reflects fundamentally on your god's
character (and by entension yours in whoreshipping him) is to say

"That's what the bible says he wanted"

You are correct.

simon kole · 06-25-2011, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dockeen

Quote:

That is not alleged in Scripture.

Ahhh, so he DOES want robots! He cares nothing about a free will decision
for him (How many times have I heard THAT one used from the pulpit, they
must have all been lying eh?)

By the way, using the term scripture, as I have pointed out to you before,
means NOTHING to me. It is simply a ploy on your part to give your point
of view an intelligence and moral integrity that it sorely lacks.

Sorry you don't like the fact that I present what the Scriptures say, but that is my stated purview.

Davka · 06-25-2011, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

If we do not pay our debt (by his Son), we will be thrown into debtors' prison even though we are unable to pay (because he has provided payment). Justice will be exacted of us to the last penny (Mt 5:26, 18:34) by God who is our adversary until our debt is paid (Ro 5:10), and with whom we are warned to settle our accounts before they come into his court of (final) judgment (Mt 5:25).

And again humans have learned to be far more just than God. In the West, we abolished debtor's prison a long time ago, because we recognized how unjust the concept is. But BibleGod is still stuck in Bronze Age morality.

What's truly odd about this is that Jesus supposedly preached against Bronze Age Morality in the sermon on the mount (You have heard "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth," but I say to you . . .). Jesus was supposedly telling people to forgive, love their enemies, bless those who curse them - and then turning around and asserting that BibleGod is not going to even try to follow BibleJesus' teachings. BibleGod will continue with an eye for an eye, cursing those who curse him, and generally acting like a small child.

The biggest contradictions in the Bible have to do with the supposed character of BibleGod. His actions as described in scripture do not match his character as described in scripture, and the evidence of BibleGod's Universe contradicts the evidence of BibleGod's Bible - making him either a liar or a trickster, but certainly not allowing him to be the kind of being the Bible describes.

simon kole · 06-25-2011, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davka

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

If we do not pay our debt (by his Son), we will be thrown into debtors' prison even though we are unable to pay (because he has provided payment). Justice will be exacted of us to the last penny (Mt 5:26, 18:34) by God who is our adversary until our debt is paid (Ro 5:10), and with whom we are warned to settle our accounts before they come into his court of (final) judgment (Mt 5:25).

And again humans have learned to be far more just than God. In the West, we abolished debtor's prison a long time ago, because we recognized how unjust the concept is. But BibleGod is still stuck in Bronze Age morality.

What's truly odd about this is that Jesus supposedly preached against Bronze Age Morality in the sermon on the mount (You have heard "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth," but I say to you . . .). Jesus was supposedly telling people to forgive, love their enemies, bless those who curse them - and then turning around and asserting that BibleGod is not going to even try to follow BibleJesus' teachings. BibleGod will continue with an eye for an eye, cursing those who curse him, and generally acting like a small child.

The biggest contradictions in the Bible have to do with the supposed character of BibleGod. His actions as described in scripture do not match his character as described in scripture, and the evidence of BibleGod's Universe contradicts the evidence of BibleGod's Bible - making him either a liar or a trickster, but certainly not allowing him to be the kind of being the Bible describes.

Well stated, as usual.

Davka · 06-25-2011, 06:04 PM

Well, Simon, you've done a wonderful job of describing who the Bible claims that God is, and why the world is so totally fucked up. Your explanation is quite accurate, actually. The God of the Bible is a sociopathic sadistic monster, and if we don't worship him he will fry us for eternity. He made us, so we better just shut up and obey.

Thank you. We see quite clearly who it is that you worship. Good thing he doesn't exist, or I'd be burned forever - because I am damned sure not going to kiss up to the Author of the Holocaust, the Plague, Sin, Hell, Torment, Child Prostitution, and every other horrific thing you care to name.

simon kole · 06-25-2011, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davka

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

If we do not pay our debt (by his Son), we will be thrown into debtors' prison even though we are unable to pay (because he has provided payment). Justice will be exacted of us to the last penny (Mt 5:26, 18:34) by God who is our adversary until our debt is paid (Ro 5:10), and with whom we are warned to settle our accounts before they come into his court of (final) judgment (Mt 5:25).

And again humans have learned to be far more just than God. In the West, we abolished debtor's prison a long time ago, because we recognized how unjust the concept is. But BibleGod is still stuck in Bronze Age morality.

What's truly odd about this is that Jesus supposedly preached against Bronze Age Morality in the sermon on the mount (You have heard "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth," but I say to you . . .). Jesus was supposedly telling people to forgive, love their enemies, bless those who curse them - and then turning around and asserting that BibleGod is not going to even try to follow BibleJesus' teachings. BibleGod will continue with an eye for an eye, cursing those who curse him, and generally acting like a small child.

The biggest contradictions in the Bible have to do with the supposed character of BibleGod. His actions as described in scripture do not match his character as described in scripture, and the evidence of BibleGod's Universe contradicts the evidence of BibleGod's Bible - making him either a liar or a trickster, but certainly not allowing him to be the kind of being the Bible describes.

Well stated, as usual.

One point: The slaughter and destruction in God's dealings with men is absolutely appalling. And that is the point.

Firstly, it shows how appalling is sin to God.
Secondly, it shows how awful will be that final destruction of sin.
Thirdly, the justice and truth of God are written in bloody script in parts of the Bible, for the convicting, or the confounding, of all those who mock at his threatenings. "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked." (Gal 6:7)

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06-25-2011, 06:04 PM	#169
Davka Contributor Join Date: May 2010 Location: Babble Belt Posts: 20,748	Well, Simon, you've done a wonderful job of describing who the Bible claims that God is, and why the world is so totally fucked up. Your explanation is quite accurate, actually. The God of the Bible is a sociopathic sadistic monster, and if we don't worship him he will fry us for eternity. He made us, so we better just shut up and obey. Thank you. We see quite clearly who it is that you worship. Good thing he doesn't exist, or I'd be burned forever - because I am damned sure not going to kiss up to the Author of the Holocaust, the Plague, Sin, Hell, Torment, Child Prostitution, and every other horrific thing you care to name.

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