Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Saramago · 06-16-2011, 10:18 PM

New topic stemming from post #734 in the "Why is the Bible so contradictory" thread.

simon kole, I'd be very interested in hearing/reading your explanation of what you see as the "basic logical inconsistency of the Bible" below, with a chance for further discussion on that topic. Thanks!

(Bolding added by me to the pertinent lines near the end of this quoted section; other bolding was in the post linked above):

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saramago

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

# 50: Who was to blame for originial sin?

Adam was to blame for originial sin (Ro 5:12).

Adam was not deceived, Eve was deceived (1Tim 2:14).
But Adam disobeyed anyway, because of Eve.
Adam was the first human created and, therefore, from whom original sin is inherited.

No; according to the story and as you have said, everything happens according to God's plan. God was/is to blame for "original sin" (in the story, even if he doesn't exist IRL).

And both statements are true. This is the basic logical inconsistency of the Bible, which I may choose to address.
But if I do, I will have to start a new thread because of all the objections and responses it will generate.

simon kole · 06-17-2011, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saramago

New topic stemming from post #734 in the "Why is the Bible so contradictory" thread.

simon kole, I'd be very interested in hearing/reading your explanation of what you see as the "basic logical inconsistency of the Bible" below, with a chance for further discussion on that topic. Thanks!

(Bolding added by me to the pertinent lines near the end of this quoted section; other bolding was in the post linked above):

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saramago

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

# 50: Who was to blame for originial sin?

Adam was to blame for originial sin (Ro 5:12).

Adam was not deceived, Eve was deceived (1Tim 2:14).
But Adam disobeyed anyway, because of Eve.
Adam was the first human created and, therefore, from whom original sin is inherited.

No; according to the story and as you have said, everything happens according to God's plan. God was/is to blame for "original sin" (in the story, even if he doesn't exist IRL).

And both statements are true. This is the basic logical inconsistency of the Bible, which I may choose to address.
But if I do, I will have to start a new thread because of all the objections and responses it will generate.

Okay, guys, I may delay until next week (and then I may not), because I am going out of town this weekend, and won't be back until Thursday.
<and I need first to build a shelter in which to take cover after my post>

Saramago · 06-17-2011, 09:05 AM

Have a nice trip (vacation, hopefully)!

Saramago · 06-18-2011, 06:22 PM

Copying this post from here in the thread, "Why is the Bible so contradictory", so simon kole can find it again (to address) when he returns from his trip. (Or possibly before he goes)

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenaphobe

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

Depending on the text and on the book of the Bible it is in, "clear" will be what is in agreement with the rest of the Bible.
The Bible claims to have one Author, which makes it one book. Therefore, correct understanding will be in agreement with the rest of the book.

The Bible makes no such claim.

Are you sure about that?

2Tim 3:16 - "ALL Scripture is God-breathed (Gr, theo-pnuestos)"- from the very breath (Spirit) of God.

The Bible makes the very clear claim that ALL Scripture has the same Author, God's Holy Spirit.

And Peter groups Paul's writings with the "other Scriptures."

2Pe 3:16 - ". . .(Paul's) letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

Quote:

As for a correct understanding, in case you haven't noticed, there are plenty of interpretations of what the Bible teaches that can not all be correct.

None are correct if they do not agree with the rest of the Bible.

Quote:

I'm sure you've heard about the little divide among Christians referred to as Calvinism and Arminianism? Both sides claim the Bible as the source of their understanding of salvation, and yet, they can not both be right.

To be more clear, the issue there is not salvation, which is by faith in Jesus Christ.
The issue there is how really dead (Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13)) is man's spirit before it is resurrected to new life
in the new birth?
Is it dead dead, or is it capable of responding in some way?

Calvinists say it is dead dead (for that is what dead means).
Arminians say it is capable of responding (which means it's not really dead).

Both sides have good Scriptures to support their positions, which means there is a basic dotrinal inconsistency
in the Bible.

STAY TUNED. . .the basic logical inconsistency and the basic doctrinal inconsistency of the Bible will be addressed
on Saramago's thread: The Logical Inconsistency of the Bible.

Both inconsistencies are resolved in the same way.

<and then we're stopping the earth so I can get off> :wave:

Quote:

Maybe the Wheel of Power can help us determine if the Bible has one Author

:Cheeky:

aeebee50 · 06-18-2011, 08:35 PM

Anything written by man is bound to fail.

dockeen · 06-18-2011, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeebee50

Anything written by man is bound to fail.

That's sure encouraging, with proposal time coming up on my job....

Saramago · 06-18-2011, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dockeen

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeebee50

Anything written by man is bound to fail.

That's sure encouraging, with proposal time coming up on my job....

Ah, but we have the answer up above: cut & paste your proposal from the Bible. That should do the trick...

Wiploc · 06-18-2011, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeebee50

Anything written by man is bound to fail.

Did you write that yourself, man?

Saramago · 06-18-2011, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiploc

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeebee50

Anything written by man is bound to fail.

Did you write that yourself, man?

simon kole said above that "the basic logical inconsistency and the basic doctrinal inconsistency of the Bible will be addressed" after he returns from travel in ~5 days. That gives us 5 days to figure it out before he returns.

I'm leaning towards "God works in mysterious ways" perhaps quoting Isaiah 55:8 ("for my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways") though really Isaiah 55:9 might be better for making sure those darned atheists recognize that God's word trumps all ("As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts").

There's also the "arguments" that (a) "God is infinite, we are finite" and/or (b) "God is at once infinite and finite". I don't know whether either is based on a specific verse in the Bible, but regardless of whether it comes from the Bible or an apologist's wet dream, I don't see how that helps explain inconsistencies. Some people seem to think being infinite would give God a pass or something.

Jaybees · 06-18-2011, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saramago

simon kole said above that "the basic logical inconsistency and the basic doctrinal inconsistency of the Bible will be addressed" after he returns from travel in ~5 days. That gives us 5 days to figure it out before he returns.

My take on this, and I think it's "consistent" with simon's beliefs, is that god can do anything, ANYTHING, ANYTHING.

She can violate natural laws, logical rules, anything that humans can think of as well as anything that human beings can't think of.

What you and I see as a logical inconsistency in the bible simply reflects our limited vision, You and I can't see that god can make a rock so heavy that she can't lift it but also lift it.

Omnipotence is a handy quality to have.

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06-17-2011, 09:05 AM	#3
Saramago Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: ZIP 981XX Posts: 8,268	Have a nice trip (vacation, hopefully)!

06-18-2011, 08:35 PM	#5
aeebee50 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 5,810	Anything written by man is bound to fail.

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