Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Tammuz · 10-16-2009, 01:31 PM

According to Brian Flemming's film The God Who Wasn't There, a common trait of saviors were that they were betrayed for 30 pieces of silver. Now I'm hardly an expert on this subject, but was the anyone else than Jesus that was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver? Mithras? Osiris? Anyone?

Also, I think it is rather false to write down Thor and Baldr as saviors, which they weren't. I doubt Baal was a savior as well. The film is interesting and occasionally funny, but alas contains many half-truths and clearly false stuff. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone making a scholarly research on the subject of Jesus' historicity and/or the historical Jesus.

Roger Pearse · 10-16-2009, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tammuz

According to Brian Flemming's film The God Who Wasn't There, a common trait of saviors were that they were betrayed for 30 pieces of silver. Now I'm hardly an expert on this subject, but was the anyone else than Jesus that was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver? Mithras? Osiris? Anyone?

I've never heard of such a thing about Osiris. It certainly isn't recorded for Mithras.

I feel depressed. Who is this creep Flemming, and why is he trying to poison the hive-mind? Just when you get past one daft story, someone invents another.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Toto · 10-16-2009, 02:49 PM

Flemming is not a creep. He is a film maker who was raised as a fundamentalist Christian, and his The God Who Wasn't There has been out for some time (since 2005) and has been thoroughly critiqued. You can find a number of old threads on this film.

Flemming accepted the Jesus-Horus connection a little too readily, but this is a small point in the overall film. I don't remember an assertion that other saviors were betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, but it's been a while.

The wikipedia article is not too bad.

show_no_mercy · 10-16-2009, 02:49 PM

Joseph was betrayed for 20 peices of silver. No need to go looking for non-existant pagan parallels.

DCHindley · 10-16-2009, 02:59 PM

Must be inflation ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Joseph was betrayed for 20 peices of silver. No need to go looking for non-existant pagan parallels.

Toto · 10-16-2009, 03:10 PM

There is also Zechariah 11:13

Quote:

And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter.

Acharya S does not list the 30 pieces of silver as proof of the pagan origin of Jesus, but she quotes Barbara Walker as saying:

Quote:

"The Sumero-Babylonian Goddess Aruru the Great was the original Potter who created human begins out of clay.... The Goddess was worshipped as a Potter in the Jewish temple, where she received "thirty pieces of silver" as the price of a sacrificial victim (Zechariah 11:13). She owned the Field of Blood, Alcedema, where clay was moistened with the blood of victims so bought. Judas, who allegedly sold Jesus for this same price, was himself another victim of the Potter. In the Potter's Field he was either hanged (Matthew 27:5) or disemboweled (Acts 1:18), suggesting that the Potter was none other than the Goddess who both created and destroyed."

'The Christ Conspiracy,' pages 200-201

I don't know how well accepted the identification of Aruru and the Potter in Zechariah is.

Toto · 10-16-2009, 03:36 PM

I am unable to pin down exactly what Flemming says. The only references to this claim come from his critics. I think there is one early part of the film where Flemming lists a number of common points, but I don't recall what he claimed about them.

Earl Doherty notes:

Quote:

Licona notes some of the parallels that Flemming "drops" on his viewers, including,

Stars Appeared at Their Birth...Healed the Sick; Cast out Demons; Performed Miracles...Betrayed for 30 Pieces of Silver; Celebrated Communal Meal with Bread and Wine; Which Represented the Savior's Flesh and Blood...Resurrected on Third Day; Ascended into Heaven...

... In the above list, I would allow that "Betrayed for 30 Pieces of Silver" probably represents one of those poorly supported, and too-close parallels with a specific Jesus feature, but the rest can hardly be denied as widespread mythemes of the ancient world, variously applying to gods, heroes or "divine men."

gdeering · 10-16-2009, 03:45 PM

Toto,

Any inclination to take your potter's field knowledege over to Wikipedia? They could use some pre NT information.

http://en.wikipedia.orPotter's_field

GD

Toto · 10-16-2009, 03:56 PM

I once registered with wikipedia because an entry popped up on a friend of mine in RL, but I never actually corrected the entry and don't even remember my password.

I don't feel enough of an expert on this point. Perhaps someone else will pick up on it.

spin · 10-16-2009, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

"The Sumero-Babylonian Goddess Aruru the Great was the original Potter who created human begins out of clay.... The Goddess was worshipped as a Potter in the Jewish temple, where she received "thirty pieces of silver" as the price of a sacrificial victim (Zechariah 11:13). She owned the Field of Blood, Alcedema, where clay was moistened with the blood of victims so bought. Judas, who allegedly sold Jesus for this same price, was himself another victim of the Potter. In the Potter's Field he was either hanged (Matthew 27:5) or disemboweled (Acts 1:18), suggesting that the Potter was none other than the Goddess who both created and destroyed."

'The Christ Conspiracy,' pages 200-201

I don't know how well accepted the identification of Aruru and the Potter in Zechariah is.

Is there any evidence supplied for the assertion that "The Goddess was worshipped as a Potter in the Jewish temple"?

spin

10-16-2009, 01:31 PM	#1
Tammuz Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Sweden Posts: 5,525	Did anyone but Jesus get betrayed for 30 pieces of silver? According to Brian Flemming's film The God Who Wasn't There, a common trait of saviors were that they were betrayed for 30 pieces of silver. Now I'm hardly an expert on this subject, but was the anyone else than Jesus that was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver? Mithras? Osiris? Anyone? Also, I think it is rather false to write down Thor and Baldr as saviors, which they weren't. I doubt Baal was a savior as well. The film is interesting and occasionally funny, but alas contains many half-truths and clearly false stuff. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone making a scholarly research on the subject of Jesus' historicity and/or the historical Jesus.

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10-16-2009, 02:49 PM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Flemming is not a creep. He is a film maker who was raised as a fundamentalist Christian, and his The God Who Wasn't There has been out for some time (since 2005) and has been thoroughly critiqued. You can find a number of old threads on this film. Flemming accepted the Jesus-Horus connection a little too readily, but this is a small point in the overall film. I don't remember an assertion that other saviors were betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, but it's been a while. The wikipedia article is not too bad.

10-16-2009, 02:49 PM	#4
show_no_mercy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Dancing Posts: 9,940	Joseph was betrayed for 20 peices of silver. No need to go looking for non-existant pagan parallels.

10-16-2009, 03:45 PM	#8
gdeering Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 237	Toto, Any inclination to take your potter's field knowledege over to Wikipedia? They could use some pre NT information. http://en.wikipedia.orPotter's_field GD

10-16-2009, 03:56 PM	#9
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I once registered with wikipedia because an entry popped up on a friend of mine in RL, but I never actually corrected the entry and don't even remember my password. I don't feel enough of an expert on this point. Perhaps someone else will pick up on it.

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