Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JoeWallack · 04-22-2008, 06:43 AM

You Took The Words Right Out Of My Mouth

JW:
The purpose of this Thread is to Inventory evidence that "Mark" used Paul as a Source.

Author's Assumptions:

1) "Mark" is primarily Fiction so it's Sources are primarily not historical.

2) "Mark" has Significant sources other than his imagination.

3) "Mark's" literary Intent was one of the following:

1 - Promote Paul's Themes

2 - Use Paul's Themes to write a really good story (most likely)

3 - Make fun of Paul's themes.

Over at Neal Godfree's superior Vridar:

Clark’s criteria for valid parallels

Neal discusses criteria for valid parallels:

Quote:

1. Similarity in content

Too vague to stand on its own as a criterion of authorial intention for passages to be read in parallel. May complement other similarities.

2. Similarity in language

Lexical repetitions or synonyms. Rare words are more likely to be significant. Consider synonyms, too. Are compound forms forms apparently used as intentional parallels to their original forms?

3. Literary form

May not stand on its own but can complement other similarities. Healings of paralytics by Peter (Acts 3:1-10) and Paul (14:8-10) share a common literary form — both contain information about the place, action of the man, word of healing, gesture of healing, immediate occurrence of healing, demonstration of healing, and effect on the crowd (from Lüdemann, Early Christianity (or via: amazon.co.uk), 53).

Sometimes better to speak of distinct literary motifs in common: example, the double visions in each of the conversions of Saul (9:1-19) and Peter (10:1-48).

4. Sequence

The more extensive a sequence is the stronger it is as an indicator of intentional parallelism. Sequences may not always be in the same strict order, however.

5. Structure

Larger parallel structures, even though not always perfectly matched, are another strong indication of an intent to create a double pattern. Examples: Talbert’s 32 parallels of content and sequence between the Gospel of Luke and Acts; between Acts 1-12 and Acts 13-28. The parallel structures suggest an intention to highlight a theme of continuity between Jesus and his disciples, and between the apostles and Paul.

6. Theme

Another complementary criterion that carries weight when in conjunction with other criteria. Perhaps also an essential criterion.

Also note: Disruption of the text

If the flow of the text is disrupted, or if a pericope is awkward internally, where a parallel appears, this is a strong indicator that the parallel was an important feature in the author’s mind.

JW:
Personally, I think Theme is the most important criteria for religious writings and, as "Mark's" Jesus said, the last will be first.

Now, on to what looks like Paul's first extant writing to look for and Inventory Themes, 1 Thessalonians:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...nians-asv.html

I find the following major themes:

1) Imitators of Jesus

2) Enduring Affliction

3) Faith in Jesus' return

4) Avoidance of the Wrath to come

5) Promote the Gospel of God

6) Seek approval of God

7) Preaching the Gospel is like a family relationship

8) Jews and Satan are the Opposition

9) Jewish tradition of being anti-God

10) Jewish attempt to prevent preaching to Gentiles.

11) Love all men

12) Jesus will return in Judgment

13) A high moral code will defend against the wrath.

14) Jesus returning from the dead is proof that the dead will come back to life.

15) Be vigilant for Jesus' return.

I see the strongest theme in 1 Thessalonians as 2) Enduring Affliction. The next step will be identifying and evaluating Parallel themes in "Mark".

Joseph

FAITH, n.
Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack · 04-23-2008, 07:52 AM

JW:
Looking for major themes in "Mark" is Subjective compared to major themes in Paul because "Mark" is Narrative while Paul is Lecture. Here's what I find:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark

1) Audience has Positive reaction to Jesus' Ministry.

2) Jesus has superior Understanding of the Law.

3) Jewish Leaders oppose Jesus.

4) Jesus is in competition with Satan.

5) Jesus preaches the Gospel of God.

6) The key to the Gospel is enduring Affliction.

7) Faith is the key to Salvation.

8) The Kingdom of God is the important Family relationship.

9) Jesus goes beyond the Boundary to include Gentiles.

10) Jesus provides everything needed.

11) What's important is Jesus' Passion and not his Ministry.

12) Jesus is the Son of God.

13) Authority comes directly from Jesus and not from Institution.

14) High moral standards are needed to reach the Kingdom.

15) The Last will be First and the first will be last.

16) Those that did not know Jesus understand Jesus compared to those who knew Jesus.

17) Jesus will return in Judgment.

18) Be Vigilant for Jesus' return.

19) Jesus' Disciples fail him.

20) Audience has Negative reaction to Jesus' Passion.

21) Jesus is crucified by the rulers of the age.

22) Jesus was resurrected.

23) No Disciples preached that Jesus was resurrected.

The Themes of Paul and "Mark" can be compared on two bases, Qualitative and Quantitative.

Quality:

I see the 5 most important Themes of 1 Thessalonians as:

1) Enduring Affliction.

2) Faith in Jesus' return.

3) Be vigilant for Jesus' return.

4) A high moral code will defend against the wrath.

5) Authority to preach the Gospel is from God.

I see the 5 most important Themes of "Mark" as:

1) What's important is Jesus' Passion and not his Ministry.

2) Jesus' Disciples fail him.

3) Faith is the key to Salvation.

4) Audience has Negative reaction to Jesus' Passion.

5) No Disciples preached that Jesus was resurrected.

This comparison is Subjective by it's nature and especially because "Mark" is Narrative and has many potential Themes. Based on the above, none of the most important Themes match up. Dropping down to a lower standard of Complementary (which is a higher standard than Consistency) as opposed to Matching, I have Faith that "Mark's" major Themes 1) and 3) above are Complementary to 1 Thessalonians major themes while 2) 4) and 5) are either Consistent or at least Compatible (lower standard).

Joseph

FAITH, n.
Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Solo · 04-23-2008, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

JW:

23) No Disciples preached that Jesus was resurrected.

They kept the matter (transfig) to themselves, discussing what “rising from the dead” meant. Mk 9:10

But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
1 Cr 15:12-13

Jiri

JoeWallack · 04-24-2008, 06:38 AM

You Took The Words Right Out Of My Mouth

JW:
Now looking at the Quantitative comparison of "Mark's" major Themes to 1 Thessalonians major Themes let's rate the strength of the parallels as follows in weakening order:

1) Match

2) Complimentary

3) Consistent

4) Compatible

5) Contradicts

Major Themes of "Mark":

1) Audience has Positive reaction to Jesus' Ministry. 2) Complimentary

2) Jesus has superior Understanding of the Law. 3) Consistent

3) Jewish Leaders oppose Jesus. 1) Match

4) Jesus is in competition with Satan. 1) Match

5) Jesus preaches the Gospel of God. 1) Match

6) The key to the Gospel is enduring Affliction. 1) Match

7) Faith is the key to Salvation. 1) Match

8) The Kingdom of God is the important Family relationship. 1) Match

9) Jesus goes beyond the Boundary to include Gentiles. 2) Complimentary

10) Jesus provides everything needed. 1) Match

11) What's important is Jesus' Passion and not his Ministry. 4) Compatible

12) Jesus is the Son of God. 1) Match

13) Authority comes directly from Jesus and not from Institution. 1) Match

14) High moral standards are needed to reach the Kingdom. 1) Match

15) The Last will be First and the first will be last. 2) Complimentary

16) Those that did not know Jesus understand Jesus compared to those who knew Jesus. 3) Consistent

17) Jesus will return in Judgment. 1) Match

18) Be Vigilant for Jesus' return. 1) Match

19) Jesus' Disciples fail him. 4) Compatible

20) Audience has Negative reaction to Jesus' Passion. 4) Compatible

21) Jesus is crucified by the rulers of the age. 1) Match

22) Jesus was resurrected. 1) Match

23) No Disciples preached that Jesus was resurrected. 4) Compatible

Scorecard:

1) Match 14

2) Complimentary 3

3) Consistent 2

4) Compatible 4

5) Contradicts -0-

Thus, comparing major Themes of "Mark" for parallels to major Themes of 1 Thessalonians, the Quantitative match up is ReMarkable.

Joseph

FAITH, n.
Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Jeffrey Gibson · 04-24-2008, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

The purpose of this Thread is to Inventory evidence that "Mark" used Paul as a Source.

I fear, Joseph, that you are reinventing the wheel. Have you looked at the discussion of this issue (and the literature cited there) in Joel Markus' Anchor commentary on Mark (or via: amazon.co.uk)?

And once again, why the strange use of capital letters?

Jeffrey

JoeWallack · 04-25-2008, 07:15 AM

You Took The Words Right Out Of My Mouth

JW:
Another quality criteria is:

Quote:

2. Similarity in language
Lexical repetitions or synonyms. Rare words are more likely to be significant. Consider synonyms, too. Are compound forms forms apparently used as intentional parallels to their original forms?

Now, on to what looks like Paul's first extant writing to look for and Inventory Similarity in language, 1 Thessalonians, first paragraph (English):

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/1_Thessalonians_1

Quote:

1 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.

1:2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention [of you] in our prayers;

1:3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith and labor of love and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, before our God and Father;

1:4 knowing, brethren beloved of God, your election,

1:5 how that our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and [in] much assurance; even as ye know what manner of men we showed ourselves toward you for your sake.

1:6 And ye became imitators of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit;

1:7 so that ye became an ensample to all that believe in Macedonia and in Achaia.

1:8 For from you hath sounded forth the word of the Lord, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but in every place your faith to God-ward is gone forth; so that we need not to speak anything.

1:9 For they themselves report concerning us what manner of entering in we had unto you; and how ye turned unto God from idols, to serve a living and true God,

1:10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, who delivereth us from the wrath to come.

JW:
The emphasis of the first paragraph is the Delivery of the Gospel. As a side note for now, note that the first Content of apparently the first Epistle of Paul, 1 Thessalonians, is delivery of the Gospel, with no background information preceding, which matches with "Mark" as opposed to the other Gospels. The key words for the delivery of the Gospel here are:

http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=1%...pter=1&verse=5

1) Gospel = εὐαγγέλιον

2) Word = λόγῳ

3) Power = δυνάμει

4) in Holy Spirit = ἐν πνεύματι ἁγίῳ

5) Assurance = πληροφορίᾳ

Looking at "Mark" we find the following matches/parallels in the same context (delivering the Gospel)

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_1

Now after John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, (1.14)

1) Gospel = "Mark"/εὐαγγέλιον (Paul/εὐαγγέλιον) Match

The sower soweth the word. (4.14)

2) Word = "Mark"/λόγον (Paul/λόγῳ) Same word, different form

And he preached, saying, There cometh after me he that is mightier than I, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. (1.7)

3) Power = "Mark"/ἰσχυρότερός (Paul/δυνάμει) Synonym

I baptized you in water; But he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit. (1.8)

4) in Holy Spirit = "Mark"/ἐν πνεύματι ἁγίῳ (Paul/ἐν πνεύματι ἁγίῳ) Match

5) Assurance = Paul/πληροφορίᾳ No match

Thus we have good parallels for key words between the first paragraph of
1 Thessalonians and "Mark".

Joseph

FAITH, n.
Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack · 04-26-2008, 06:43 AM

You Took The Words Right Out Of My Mouth

JW:
Criteria:

Quote:

2. Similarity in language
Lexical repetitions or synonyms. Rare words are more likely to be significant. Consider synonyms, too. Are compound forms forms apparently used as intentional parallels to their original forms?

Paul's likely first extant writing 1 Thessalonians, second paragraph (English):

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/1_Thessalonians_1

Quote:

2:1 For yourselves, brethren, know our entering in unto you, that it hath not been found vain:

2:2 but having suffered before and been shamefully treated, as ye know, at Philippi, we waxed bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God in much conflict.

2:3 For our exhortation [is] not of error, nor of uncleanness, nor in guile:

2:4 but even as we have been approved of God to be intrusted with the gospel, so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God who proveth our hearts.

2:5 For neither at any time were we found using words of flattery, as ye know, nor a cloak of covetousness, God is witness;

2:6 nor seeking glory of men, neither from you nor from others, when we might have claimed authority as apostles of Christ.

2:7 But we were gentle in the midst of you, as when a nurse cherisheth her own children:

2:8 even so, being affectionately desirous of you, we were well pleased to impart unto you, not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because ye were become very dear to us.

2:9 For ye remember, brethren, our labor and travail: working night and day, that we might not burden any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.

2:10 Ye are witnesses, and God [also], how holily and righteously and unblameably we behaved ourselves toward you that believe:

2:11 as ye know how we [dealt with] each one of you, as a father with his own children, exhorting you, and encouraging [you], and testifying,

2:12 to the end that ye should walk worthily of God, who calleth you into his own kingdom and glory.

2:13 And for this cause we also thank God without ceasing, that, when ye received from us the word of the message, [even the word] of God, ye accepted [it] not [as] the word of men, but, as it is in truth, the word of God, which also worketh in you that believe.

2:14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;

2:15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;

2:16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved; to fill up their sins always: but the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

2:17 But we, brethren, being bereaved of you for a short season, in presence not in heart, endeavored the more exceedingly to see your face with great desire:

2:18 because we would fain have come unto you, I Paul once and again; and Satan hindered us.

2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of glorying? Are not even ye, before our Lord Jesus at his coming?

2:20 For ye are our glory and our joy.

JW:
The emphasis of the first paragraph was the Delivery of the Gospel. The emphasis of the second paragraph here is the Reception of the Gospel. The parallel in "Mark" is The Parable of the Vineyard:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_12

Quote:

12:1 And he began to speak unto them in parables. A man planted a vineyard, and set a hedge about it, and digged a pit for the winepress, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into another country.

12:2 And at the season he sent to the husbandmen a servant, that he might receive from the husbandmen of the fruits of the vineyard.

12:3 And they took him, and beat him, and sent him away empty.

12:4 And again he sent unto them another servant; and him they wounded in the head, and handled shamefully.

12:5 And he sent another; and him they killed: and many others; beating some, and killing some.

12:6 He had yet one, a beloved son: he sent him last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.

12:7 But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.

12:8 And they took him, and killed him, and cast him forth out of the vineyard.

12:9 What therefore will the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.

JW:
Key words comparison:

http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=1%...pter=2&verse=1

http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Ma...ter=12&verse=1

1) Shamefully treated = Paul/ὑβρισθέντες (1.2) "Mark"/�*τίμασαν (12.4) Synonym

2) killed the Lord Jesus = Paul/κύριον ἀποκτεινάντων Ἰησοῦν (2:15) "Mark"/κἀκεῖνον ἀπέκτειναν (12:5) Same word, different form

3) drove out = Paul/ἐκδιωξάντων (2:15) "Mark"/ἐξέβαλον (12:8) Synonym

Thus we have good parallels for key words between the second paragraph of
1 Thessalonians and "Mark".

Joseph

FAITH, n.
Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

andrewcriddle · 04-26-2008, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

You Took The Words Right Out Of My Mouth

JW:
Criteria:

Quote:

2. Similarity in language
Lexical repetitions or synonyms. Rare words are more likely to be significant. Consider synonyms, too. Are compound forms forms apparently used as intentional parallels to their original forms?

Paul's likely first extant writing 1 Thessalonians, second paragraph (English):

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/1_Thessalonians_1

Quote:

2:1 For yourselves, brethren, know our entering in unto you, that it hath not been found vain:

2:2 but having suffered before and been shamefully treated, as ye know, at Philippi, we waxed bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God in much conflict.

2:3 For our exhortation [is] not of error, nor of uncleanness, nor in guile:

2:4 but even as we have been approved of God to be intrusted with the gospel, so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God who proveth our hearts.

2:5 For neither at any time were we found using words of flattery, as ye know, nor a cloak of covetousness, God is witness;

2:6 nor seeking glory of men, neither from you nor from others, when we might have claimed authority as apostles of Christ.

2:7 But we were gentle in the midst of you, as when a nurse cherisheth her own children:

2:8 even so, being affectionately desirous of you, we were well pleased to impart unto you, not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because ye were become very dear to us.

2:9 For ye remember, brethren, our labor and travail: working night and day, that we might not burden any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.

2:10 Ye are witnesses, and God [also], how holily and righteously and unblameably we behaved ourselves toward you that believe:

2:11 as ye know how we [dealt with] each one of you, as a father with his own children, exhorting you, and encouraging [you], and testifying,

2:12 to the end that ye should walk worthily of God, who calleth you into his own kingdom and glory.

2:13 And for this cause we also thank God without ceasing, that, when ye received from us the word of the message, [even the word] of God, ye accepted [it] not [as] the word of men, but, as it is in truth, the word of God, which also worketh in you that believe.

2:14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;

2:15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;

2:16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved; to fill up their sins always: but the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

2:17 But we, brethren, being bereaved of you for a short season, in presence not in heart, endeavored the more exceedingly to see your face with great desire:

2:18 because we would fain have come unto you, I Paul once and again; and Satan hindered us.

2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of glorying? Are not even ye, before our Lord Jesus at his coming?

2:20 For ye are our glory and our joy.

JW:
The emphasis of the first paragraph was the Delivery of the Gospel. The emphasis of the second paragraph here is the Reception of the Gospel. The parallel in "Mark" is The Parable of the Vineyard:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_12

Quote:

12:1 And he began to speak unto them in parables. A man planted a vineyard, and set a hedge about it, and digged a pit for the winepress, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into another country.

12:2 And at the season he sent to the husbandmen a servant, that he might receive from the husbandmen of the fruits of the vineyard.

12:3 And they took him, and beat him, and sent him away empty.

12:4 And again he sent unto them another servant; and him they wounded in the head, and handled shamefully.

12:5 And he sent another; and him they killed: and many others; beating some, and killing some.

12:6 He had yet one, a beloved son: he sent him last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.

12:7 But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.

12:8 And they took him, and killed him, and cast him forth out of the vineyard.

12:9 What therefore will the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.

JW:
Key words comparison:

http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=1%...pter=2&verse=1

http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Ma...ter=12&verse=1

1) Shamefully treated = Paul/ὑβρισθέντες (1.2) "Mark"/�*τίμασαν (12.4) Synonym

2) killed the Lord Jesus = Paul/κύριον ἀποκτεινάντων Ἰησοῦν (2:15) "Mark"/κἀκεῖνον ἀπέκτειναν (12:5) Same word, different form

3) drove out = Paul/ἐκδιωξάντων (2:15) "Mark"/ἐξέβαλον (12:8) Synonym

Thus we have good parallels for key words between the second paragraph of
1 Thessalonians and "Mark".

Joseph

FAITH, n.
Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

IF this is valid it would be an argument for the authenticity of 1Thessalonians 1:14-16. (which is regarded by some as a post-Pauline interpolation.)

Andrew Criddle

Malachi151 · 04-26-2008, 07:47 AM

Quote:

The purpose of this Thread is to Inventory evidence that "Mark" used Paul as a Source.

I've got a pretty substantial inventory of this already:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar...ospel_mark.htm

Mark - Reference - Subject of passage

1:2 - Malachi 3:1 - Destruction of Israel
1:3 - Isaiah 40:3 - Destruction of Israel
1:6 - 2 Kings 1:8 - Identification of Elijah
1:10 - Isaiah 11:2, 42:1 - Identification of servant of God
1:17 - Jeremiah16:16 - Destruction of Israel
1:23 - Isaiah 65:1 - Identification of servant of God, admonishment of Jewish people
2:1 - 2 Kings 5:8 - Parallel of Elijah/Elisha miracles
2:17 - Romans 6 - Pauline teaching
2:23 - 1 Samuel 21:1 - Incorrect reference to Davidic deed, follows Pauline teaching
4:11 - Colossians 1:25 - Pauline teaching
4:12 - Isaiah 6/Romans 11 - Admonishment of Jewish people
4:38 - Psalm 107:28 - Identification of the work of the Lord by his deeds
5:1 - Isaiah 65:1 - Identification of servant of God, admonishment of Jewish people
5:21 - 2 Kings 17:22 - Parallel of Elijah/Elisha miracles
6:6 - 1 Corinthians 4:11 - Pauline teaching
6:14 - 2 Kings 2:9 - Parallel of Elijah/Elisha miracles
6:37 - 2 Kings 4:42 - Parallel of Elijah/Elisha miracles
6:48 - Isaiah 43:2 - Identification of the Lord and Savior
7:21 - Galatians 5:19 - Pauline teaching
7:31 - Isaiah 29,35,42 - Identification of the Holy One, admonishment of the Jewish people
8:12 - 1 Corinthians1:22 - Pauline teaching
8:14 - 1 Corinthians5:8 - Pauline teaching
8:33 - Galatians2:11 - Pauline teaching
8:31 - Isaiah 53 - Identification of servant of God
8:35 - Philippians 1,2 - Pauline teaching
9:2 - Daniel 12:3 - Resurrection
9:38 - Philippians 1:18 - Pauline teaching
9:47 - Isiah 66:22 - Destruction of nonbelievers
10:11 - 1 Corinthians 7:10 - Pauline teaching
10:44 - 1 Corinthians 9:19 - Pauline teaching
11:1 - Zechariah 14,9 - Identification of the king / messiah
11:10 - Psalm 118:26 - Identification of the blessed one
11:12 - Hosea 9 - Destruction of Israel
11:17 - Isaiah 56:7 - Destruction of Israel, pro-Gentile
11:17 - Jeremiah 7:11 - Destruction of Israel, admonishment of Jewish people
12:1 - Isaiah 5 - Destruction of Israel, admonishment of Jewish people
12:17 - Romans 13:7 - Pauline teaching
12:25 - 1 Corinthians15:35 - Pauline teaching
12:31 - Romans 13:9 - Pauline teaching
12:33 - Hosea 6:6 - Admonishment of Jewish people
13:8 - Isaiah 13,14,19 - Destruction of the world, signs of the end times
13:9 - 2 Corinthians11:23 - Pauline teaching
13:14 - Daniel 9,11,12 - Destruction of Israel, signs of the end times
13:24 - Isaiah 13:10 - Destruction of the world, signs of the end times
13:26 - Daniel 7:13 - Signs of the end times
13:32 - 1 Thessalonians 5:2 - Pauline teaching
14:1 - 1 Corinthians 5:7 - Pauline teaching
14:1 - 1 Corinthians 2:8 - Pauline teaching
14:3 - 1 Samuel 10:1 - Anointing of king
14:10 - Amos 2:4 - Destruction of Israel, admonishment of Jewish people
14:12 - 1 Samuel 10:2 - Events leading up to crowing of king
14:18 - Psalm 41:8 - Destruction of friends who have betrayed
14:22 - 1 Corinthians 11:23 - Pauline teaching
14:25 - Amos 2:12 - Destruction of Israel, admonishment of Jewish people
14:27 - Zechariah 13:7 - Destruction of Israel
14:36 - Romans 8:5 - Pauline teaching
14:51 - Amos 2:16 - Destruction of Israel, admonishment of Jewish people
14:59 - Isaiah 53:7 - Injustice against God's servant
14:59 - Psalm 35, 110 - Injustice
14:62 - Daniel 7:13 - Signs of the end of times
15:19 - Mica 5:1 - Mocking and striking the ruler of Israel
15:19 - Isaiah 50:6 - Injustice against the servant of the Lord, the servant as a sacrifice
15:29- Psalm 22 - Agony in the hands of tormentors, hope in the Lord
15:33 - Amos 8:9 - Sign that will signal the day the Lord will begin to destroy Israel
15:43 - Isaiah 53:9 - Identification of the servant of the Lord

Clivedurdle · 04-26-2008, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

The purpose of this Thread is to Inventory evidence that "Mark" used Paul as a Source.

I fear, Joseph, that you are reinventing the wheel. Have you looked at the discussion of this issue (and the literature cited there) in Joel Markus' Anchor commentary on Mark (or via: amazon.co.uk)?

Jeffrey

But if Mark is as dependent on Paul as clearly as he seems to be, where is the direct link to a real Jesus? Who has explored for example if Peter is Mark's name for Paul?

Quote:

Literary form

May not stand on its own but can complement other similarities. Healings of paralytics by Peter (Acts 3:1-10) and Paul (14:8-10) share a common literary form — both contain information about the place, action of the man, word of healing, gesture of healing, immediate occurrence of healing, demonstration of healing, and effect on the crowd (from Lüdeman, Early Christianity, 53).

Sometimes better to speak of distinct literary motifs in common: example, the double visions in each of the conversions of Saul (9:1-19) and Peter (10:1-48).

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04-23-2008, 07:52 AM	#2
JoeWallack Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Nazareth Posts: 2,357	JW: Looking for major themes in "Mark" is Subjective compared to major themes in Paul because "Mark" is Narrative while Paul is Lecture. Here's what I find: http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark 1) Audience has Positive reaction to Jesus' Ministry. 2) Jesus has superior Understanding of the Law. 3) Jewish Leaders oppose Jesus. 4) Jesus is in competition with Satan. 5) Jesus preaches the Gospel of God. 6) The key to the Gospel is enduring Affliction. 7) Faith is the key to Salvation. 8) The Kingdom of God is the important Family relationship. 9) Jesus goes beyond the Boundary to include Gentiles. 10) Jesus provides everything needed. 11) What's important is Jesus' Passion and not his Ministry. 12) Jesus is the Son of God. 13) Authority comes directly from Jesus and not from Institution. 14) High moral standards are needed to reach the Kingdom. 15) The Last will be First and the first will be last. 16) Those that did not know Jesus understand Jesus compared to those who knew Jesus. 17) Jesus will return in Judgment. 18) Be Vigilant for Jesus' return. 19) Jesus' Disciples fail him. 20) Audience has Negative reaction to Jesus' Passion. 21) Jesus is crucified by the rulers of the age. 22) Jesus was resurrected. 23) No Disciples preached that Jesus was resurrected. The Themes of Paul and "Mark" can be compared on two bases, Qualitative and Quantitative. Quality: I see the 5 most important Themes of 1 Thessalonians as: 1) Enduring Affliction. 2) Faith in Jesus' return. 3) Be vigilant for Jesus' return. 4) A high moral code will defend against the wrath. 5) Authority to preach the Gospel is from God. I see the 5 most important Themes of "Mark" as: 1) What's important is Jesus' Passion and not his Ministry. 2) Jesus' Disciples fail him. 3) Faith is the key to Salvation. 4) Audience has Negative reaction to Jesus' Passion. 5) No Disciples preached that Jesus was resurrected. This comparison is Subjective by it's nature and especially because "Mark" is Narrative and has many potential Themes. Based on the above, none of the most important Themes match up. Dropping down to a lower standard of Complementary (which is a higher standard than Consistency) as opposed to Matching, I have Faith that "Mark's" major Themes 1) and 3) above are Complementary to 1 Thessalonians major themes while 2) 4) and 5) are either Consistent or at least Compatible (lower standard). Joseph FAITH, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

04-24-2008, 06:38 AM	#4
JoeWallack Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Nazareth Posts: 2,357	You Took The Words Right Out Of My Mouth JW: Now looking at the Quantitative comparison of "Mark's" major Themes to 1 Thessalonians major Themes let's rate the strength of the parallels as follows in weakening order: 1) Match 2) Complimentary 3) Consistent 4) Compatible 5) Contradicts Major Themes of "Mark": 1) Audience has Positive reaction to Jesus' Ministry. 2) Complimentary 2) Jesus has superior Understanding of the Law. 3) Consistent 3) Jewish Leaders oppose Jesus. 1) Match 4) Jesus is in competition with Satan. 1) Match 5) Jesus preaches the Gospel of God. 1) Match 6) The key to the Gospel is enduring Affliction. 1) Match 7) Faith is the key to Salvation. 1) Match 8) The Kingdom of God is the important Family relationship. 1) Match 9) Jesus goes beyond the Boundary to include Gentiles. 2) Complimentary 10) Jesus provides everything needed. 1) Match 11) What's important is Jesus' Passion and not his Ministry. 4) Compatible 12) Jesus is the Son of God. 1) Match 13) Authority comes directly from Jesus and not from Institution. 1) Match 14) High moral standards are needed to reach the Kingdom. 1) Match 15) The Last will be First and the first will be last. 2) Complimentary 16) Those that did not know Jesus understand Jesus compared to those who knew Jesus. 3) Consistent 17) Jesus will return in Judgment. 1) Match 18) Be Vigilant for Jesus' return. 1) Match 19) Jesus' Disciples fail him. 4) Compatible 20) Audience has Negative reaction to Jesus' Passion. 4) Compatible 21) Jesus is crucified by the rulers of the age. 1) Match 22) Jesus was resurrected. 1) Match 23) No Disciples preached that Jesus was resurrected. 4) Compatible Scorecard: 1) Match 14 2) Complimentary 3 3) Consistent 2 4) Compatible 4 5) Contradicts -0- Thus, comparing major Themes of "Mark" for parallels to major Themes of 1 Thessalonians, the Quantitative match up is ReMarkable. Joseph FAITH, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

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