chimaira

Hello all .

don't quote a single sentence "proof text", read the whole section. What really happened here? (Please read Genesis Chapters 2 and 3. Come on, it just takes a few minutes.)

Now off to the first curse, the snake. Notice verse 15, Chapter 3, "I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and hers...." [1]

Clearly the curse directed at the snake is eternal, given this reference to future generations. And it is a curse as verse 14 says,

"Because you did this, more cursed shall you be..."

Now look at the sixteenth verse, the alleged "curse" of the woman. Do you see the word "curse" there anywhere? No, because it is not there. The woman was punished for her acts but not cursed.

On to Adam (Chapter 3, verses 17 -20). The word "cursed" appears in this section, right? Yes, but look at verse 17, "Cursed be the ground because of you." Not "Cursed be you." [italics mine] Big difference.

Adam was going to have to farm (work hard) for a living but absolutely no curse was applied to him directly. It didn't happen. Period.

So we don't have a curse? Wasn't the punishment eternal?

Check again. I've pointed out the reference to future generations in the curse of the snake. There is absolutely no reference to future generations in the punishments of Adam and Eve.

Wasn't this somehow implied?

Well, look at some other sections. When God meant something to be eternal, He said so. Look at Chapter 17, verse 7 which gives the time span of God's covenant with Abraham, "I will maintain My covenant between Me and you, and your offspring to come, throughout the ages, to be your God to you and to your offspring to come."

So God was perfectly capable of assigning a time frame, even an eternal time frame, to His actions when He wanted to. Obviously, a Supreme Being Who made the eternal nature of His blessing through Abraham so clear would have made the eternal nature of any curse through Adam equally clear.

But can't we prove the existence of some sort of eternal curse since Adam and Eve brought death to all mankind?

Look at God's pronouncement of Adam's "death sentence" in verse 17, "For dust you are, and to dust you shall return."

So Adam and Eve were created with eternal life and then cursed with death, right? Surely their action is the reason we all must die?

Wrong . Adam and Eve were born mortal. Note verse 17 does not says "Dust you have become" it says "Dust you are."

They never had eternal life in the first place. Then check out verses 22 through 25. God says (presumably to the angels) regarding Adam, "What if he should stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever?"

In other words there was an action which Adam had not yet performed which was required for Adam to sustain his Body and receive an eternal nature.

And what did God do after this statement? He drove Adam out of the garden and placed an angel with a flaming sword to guard the tree of life. In other words, Adam never had an immortal nature to lose. He was simply placed in a position where his mortal nature continued.

let me explain it again :

God placed an angel to guard the tree of life to prevent Adam and Eve from eating from it for the simple reason that if they had begun to eat from this tree their mortal natures would not have effected them . No Tree of Life = No immortality . We never had an immortal nature .

The bottom line is that there never was any curse of original sin. Therefore never any need for anyone to die for us to remove such a curse. We are each responsible for our own actions and our own individual relationship with God.


Bye all .

Casper

So no curse is expressly spoken of by Jehovah at that time, but the test is if your implication (that there was no curse) cannot be later refuted, at least not by Jehovah's words. And aren't there later discussions with Jehovah himself where an actual curse against Adam is mentioned? I am not a bible scholar, I only know this stuff from Sunday school, way way back when. But I seem to remember something along this track of thought.

chimaira

good evening, the concepte of the Christian original sin is an invention of Paul, jésus is innocent of its,no trace of concept in the Jewish bible or the words allotted to jésus .

bye

judge

The "patristic" view of this as well as the view of at least some jewish commentators is that Adam was created neither mortal (destined to die) or immortal (unable to die), but in a state where either was a possibility.
Augustine went to considerable length to articulate this view in his writings.

I am running out the door now but if you are interested I can provide some references to his writings and or jewish ones of the same persuasion.

He did say "It was not impossible for him to die but it was possible for him not to die."
Had he obeyed he would have been "clothed with immortality", which he understood as being the same as being "resurrected".

Gotta go!

chimaira

hello judge, makes some I think that they died spiritually, if not I would be charmed by the Jewish sight on this, thank you

judge

Charmed to provide it!

Here is an article (chapter of a book actually) which refers to several sources.

seeker

Just playing devils advocate here but weren't all women cursed to bear children in pain?

chimaira

I do not think that to give the life in the pain it is a curse is rather a pride not? to work to also eat it is a curse or the pride of the man?

bye !!!