Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Wads4 · 08-24-2006, 02:07 AM

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Yet, God does not restore the offspring to Eden. So, why are they reduced to toil in sweat and to suffer in childbirth ? Why do they die also ? Any ideas ?

Does it not say somewhere that the sins of the fathers will be visited upon the children unto the third and fourth generations,--in "Kings" maybe? That sounds to me like Original Sin which has to be atoned for, in the Hebrew scriptures.

Solo · 08-24-2006, 05:49 AM

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Originally Posted by greyline

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Yet, God does not restore the offspring to Eden. So, why are they reduced to toil in sweat and to suffer in childbirth ? Why do they die also ? Any ideas ? :wave:

Because God lied yet again - or at least, meted out a punishment that went, literally, infinitely far beyond the punishment he originally threatened them with.

...and this, I suppose, represents the consensus in the theology of Judaism, or argues with my position that the concept of "original" or "first sin" (without Jesus' role in it) originated and continues to operate in Judaism.

Jiri

Solo · 08-24-2006, 06:09 AM

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Originally Posted by Anat

Solo, A&E's children died because they were prevented from eating the fruit of the Tree of Life. My HS Bible teacher claimed that there was no punishment for the transgression of A&E, but new arrangements had to be made because God decided to prevent physical access to the Tree of Life.

Whether, he/she called it "punishment" or "arrangement" one cannot deny that it relates to the Fall of Man from God's grace, through the sin of A&E.

More importantly:
What did Jewish people believe at the time Paul was proclaiming Christ as the antidote to death ?

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Thus there was a necessity to provide for an alternate means for making a living (working hard in the fields) and an alternate means for assuring human continuity (sexual reproduction).

God knows no "necessity".

Jiri

Solo · 08-24-2006, 06:15 AM

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Originally Posted by RED DAVE

Original sin, involving the essentially corrupt and sinful nature of mankind, which requires the grace of god for its redemption, is not part of the Jewish religion (or Jewish psychology).
RED DAVE

That is true. Jews have a covenant with God and deal with man's essentially corrupt and sinful nature through Moses' law.

Jiri

Anat · 08-24-2006, 07:27 AM

Wads, the same source says sins are remembered for 4 generations but following commandments for thousands of them. Orthodox tradition is that Jews are still benefiting from the righteousness of the patriarchs.

Sgent29 · 08-24-2006, 07:29 AM

"That is true. Jews have a covenant with God and deal with man's essentially corrupt and sinful nature through Moses' law."

Jews don't believe that man is essentially corrupt & sinful.

jakejonesiv · 08-24-2006, 07:39 AM

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Originally Posted by greyline

Well, I know the answer because I went to Jewish websites and heard it vehemently from the mouth of a Jew that they do not.

However, I recently had an online discussion with Christians who had no idea that Jews didn't believe in Original Sin - that is, sin inherited from Adam & Eve that damns all humans to hell by default.

My question is primarily for Christians: if the doctrine of Original Sin is so important for the eternal destination of our souls, how come Jews didn't know about it?

And how come Jesus didn't know about it? (Well, he was a Jew, after all.)

Well, if Christians belive in original sin, do aborted babies and infants who die go to hell? If not why not? Doesn't the dodge about "reaching the age of accountability" negate the whole original sin thing?

Jake Jones

Anat · 08-24-2006, 07:44 AM

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Originally Posted by Solo

Whether, he/she called it "punishment" or "arrangement" one cannot deny that it relates to the Fall of Man from God's grace, through the sin of A&E.

No. See the sources I quoted later. The Fall of Man from God's Grace is not meaningful Jewish terminology. According to one source being removed from the garden created an opportunity for spiritual growth because man had to form an active connection with God to survive.

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God knows no "necessity".

God creates his own necessity.

Solo · 08-24-2006, 08:12 AM

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Originally Posted by Anat

The Fall of Man from God's Grace is not meaningful Jewish terminology.

Which part of the statement would not be meaningful to Jewish faith: Man's Fall ? The psalmist perception of God ?

Kindly, remember also to enlighten me about what the "Jewish terminology" was at the time of Paul.

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God creates his own necessity.

....and where did you Google that precious piece of Jewish terminology ?

Jiri

Solo · 08-24-2006, 08:35 AM

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Originally Posted by Sgent29

"
Jews don't believe that man is essentially corrupt & sinful.

Here is an excerpt from a Hasidic on-line manual on repentance:

Before a person returns to God, he has no being. It is as if he has not yet been created. Because it would have been better for him not to have been created at all. But when he comes and purifies himself in order to return to God, he puts himself in order and prepares to become a being. This element of preparation for becoming -- coming into being, as it were -- explains why the Divine Name which is associated with repentance is Ehyeh, `I shall be'

When someone wants to purify himself and return to God, they tell him `Wait!' (Yoma 38b-39a). It is true that he should hurry to release his soul and flee from the darkness. But he shouldn't be discouraged and depressed when he sees how far he is from true prayer and other holy devotions. It is a necessary part of the process that he should wait. In the end he will be worthy of making amends completely, and all will be restored. Understand this well.

Repentance never stops. It is a continuing movement. Even at the very moment that a person is saying `I have sinned, I have transgressed, I have rebelled, etc.' it is still impossible for him to say the words with complete sincerity without a single extraneous motive. Thus he must repent for his earlier repentance -- namely the flaw in his previous confession.

Jiri

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08-24-2006, 07:27 AM	#35
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	Wads, the same source says sins are remembered for 4 generations but following commandments for thousands of them. Orthodox tradition is that Jews are still benefiting from the righteousness of the patriarchs.

08-24-2006, 07:29 AM	#36
Sgent29 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Memphis Posts: 86	"That is true. Jews have a covenant with God and deal with man's essentially corrupt and sinful nature through Moses' law." Jews don't believe that man is essentially corrupt & sinful.

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