Crimson Glory

Pardon my ignorance, what is IIUC?

Toto

IIUC If I Understand Correctly

Crimson Glory

Thanks, Toto.

But the problem still would be if that suggestion holds any ground at all... No indication comes from the text itself and no evidence whatsoever seems to link Chrestus to Christ.

DCHindley

Andrew,

All this passage says is that the emperor expelled Jews from Rome due to disturbances instigated by a certain Chrestus.

Why must we assume that these expelled Jews would be agitated over Jesus Christ?

Christians have long had the notion that history revolves around their Christ, and IMHO christians and academics reared in western culture read Christ into several ambiguous statements. "It just has to be an accidental misspelling, or intentional put-down, of (our Lord) Jesus Christ (PBUH)."

I'll just accept the fact that this source says Jews were expelled for riots instigated by a certain Chrestus, and not read anything into it.

DCH

aa5874

But, where did Suetonius mention the word "Jesus" or the alleged Messiah called Jesus?

The words "Jesus of Nazareth, of Galilee or Jesus the Christ" is nowhere in the passages of the ALL the histories of the twelve Caesars written by Surtonius.

And further, Suetonius in the Life of Vespasian claimed the Jews were expecting Christ or the Messiah at around the Jewish War at around 70 CE.

Roger Pearse

Orosius, book 7, chapter 6:

6. During the seven hundred and ninety-fifth year of the City, Tiberius Claudius, the fourth in succession from Augustus, came to the throne. He occupied it for fourteen years. In the beginning of his reign, Peter, the apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, came to Rome. There he taught by the true word the religion that brings salvation to all believers and attested it by mighty miracles. From that time on there began to be Christians in Rome. The City felt that this favor had been bestowed on her because of her faith. After the murder of Caligula, the Senate and the consuls passed many resolutions with a view to abolishing the empire, restoring the commonwealth to its former status, and wiping out completely the entire family of the Caesars. Soon after establishing his rule, Claudius exercised a clemency previously unknown in Rome. To prevent vengeance from venting its rage, if it should get a start, upon so many of the nobility, he consigned to oblivion the memory of those two days during which those unhappy measures and acts had been passed regarding the form of government, and decreed that all that had been done or said during that period should be pardoned and forever forgotten. This was that renowned and glorious Athenian amnesty, which the Senate, on the advice of Cicero, had tried to introduce at Rome after the death of Julius Caesar, but which at that time had come to naught because of the onslaughts made by Antony and Octavian in their efforts to avenge Caesar's murder. Yet Claudius, without being asked by anyone, assented because of his humanity, though he had serious provocation to execute those who had conspired against him.

Now at this time by the grace of God a great miracle occurred. Furius Camillus Scribonianus, the governor of Dalmatia, had been plotting a civil war and had persuaded many of the strongest legions to break their allegiance. But on the day appointed for their assembling at the side of the new emperor, they found it impossible either to adorn the eagles or to pull up and move the standards. This unique miracle so impressed the soldiers that they gave up their plan, abandoned Scribonianus, killed him four days later, and returned to their former allegiance. Now it is well known that nothing has ever brought more sorrow and destruction upon Rome than civil wars. Of a certainty God repressed this rising tyranny and threatening civil war on account of the coming of the apostle Peter and for the sake of the few Christians, who, like tender shoots springing up here and there, were just beginning to profess the holy faith. If anyone would deny this fact, let him produce a similar instance of the suppression of civil war in past ages.

In the fourth year of his reign Claudius looked about everywhere for an opportunity to engage in a successful war, for he wanted to appear as a prince who was of some service to the state. Accordingly he undertook a campaign in Britain, which was in the throes of an insurrection. This insurrection had apparently arisen because certain deserters had been barred from returning home.He crossed over to the island, which no one before had ventured to approach except Julius Caesar. There, to quote the words of Suetonius Tranquillus, "within a very few days he reduced the greater part of the island to submission without fighting or bloodshed." He also added to the Roman Empire the Qrcades Islands situated in the Ocean beyond Britain and within six months of the date of his departure he returned to Rome.

Any person of the present day who pleases may make comparisons in regard to this one island, period with period, war with war, Caesar with Caesar. I say nothing of the outcome, since in this case it was the most fortunate of victories, previously the bitterest of disasters. Thus Rome may finally come to see that the God through Whose Providence she formerly enjoyed partial success in her undertakings is the God through Whose recognition she now enjoys success in all its fullness to the extent that she does not become corrupted through the stumbling block of her blasphemies.

In the same year of this emperor's reign, as the prophets had foretold, there was a terrible famine throughout Syria. The needs of the Christians at Jerusalem, however, were bountifully supplied with grain that Helena, the queen of Adiabeni and a convert to the faith of Christ, had imported from Egypt.

In the fifth year of the reign of Claudius, an island, extending over a space of thirty stadia, suddenly appeared out of the deep sea between Thera and Therasia.

Two years later, when Cumanus was procurator of Judaea, an insurrection broke out in Jerusalem at the time of the Passover. So great was this riot that the people were crushed while stampeding through the gates. Thirty thousand Jews are said to have been trampled to death or suffocated in the congestion.

In the ninth year of his reign, Claudius expelled the Jews from Rome. Both Josephus and Suetonius record this event, but I prefer, however, the account of the latter, who speaks as follows: "Claudius expelled the Jews from Rome because in their resentment against Christ they were continually creating disturbances." As a matter of fact, however, no one can say whether the emperor ordered the Jews to be restrained and repressed because they were creating disturbances against Christ or whether he wished the Christians to be expelled at the same time on the ground that they were members of an allied religion.

Nevertheless, during the following year there was so great a famine in Rome that the emperor was taunted and insulted by the people in the middle of the Forum and shamefully pelted with pieces of bread. He barely managed to escape the fury of the excited mob by fleeing through a private entrance into the Palace.

Not long afterward, Claudius, acting upon the flimsiest pretext, put to death thirty-five senators and three hundred Roman knights at one time. In the matter of his own death, however, there were clear indications that he had been poisoned.

aa5874

There is a massive error. Suetonius wrote CHRESTUS, not chrIstus, the author of Orosius is dead wrong.

vid

AFAIK, there is evidence that using "Chrestus" for Jesus was widespred in early Christianities, and there was tendency to "fix" this to Christos later. I'd say Orosius only followed this manner.

aa5874

This is a complete fallacy. "Chrestus" does not even translate to "Jesus".

Now, what was the widespread use of the word "Christus"?

vid

I meant they used "Chrestus" for person we now refer to as Jesus, and as name of religion. Look for "Chrestus" in following article, it lists quite enough examples: http://www.sullivan-county.com/id2/marcion.htm

I don't follow... What do you mean ???