vid

I am interesting in dating following event from Suetonius' Life of Claudius:

Following paper at JSTOR dates this event to 41AD based on comparison with another passage (ban to meet for Jews). Unfortunatelly I don't have access to JSTOR articles, and I can only see preview page, so I miss entire argument.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1453891

Could someone describe basis of 41 dating? (or send me copy of mentioned paper, unless it's illegal )

Toto

From a review of another work by the same author

Crimson Glory

I don't get it. Chrestus, at best, points towards a Jewish rebel in Rome during the Claudius reign (41-54 c.e.). The text of Suetonius says nothing about Christ or Christians, or even a schismatic sect of Jews. In fact, the main problem is the place, not the time. A Jewish rebel in the Rome of the fifties cannot be confused with a preacher in the Judaea of the thirties. Did Jesus travel to Rome?

The only option would be translating "impulsor" as "inspirator" in spite of "instigator", but that would be pretty irregular and it still mentions Chrestus, a common name in Rome, and not Christus (a title, not a name). I never saw this Suetonius source but as wish-thinking of believers created from a coincidence.

andrewcriddle

The suggestion IIUC is that Suetonius' source misunderstood a row among Roman Jews about Jesus the alleged Messiah as a dispute provoked by a Jewish agitator in Rome called Chrestus.

Andrew Criddle

Littlejohn

Hello Vid!...Greetings!

It's very likely that this passage of Suetonius, which appears in the life of Claudio, has been moved from "pitiful" scribes' hands and that this passage originally appeared in Life of CLAUDIUS NERO, rather than that of Claudius Tiberius: father-in-law and uncle of Claudius Nero. Most likely this edict was promulgated around 64, after the attack to Simon Magus (because of what it was, and not a simple fall while "flew"). Rather than make a "slaughter" of Jews by the diaspora, considered accomplices of the attack-men (including the" holy" Simon Peter!), Nero was advised, after execute those direct responsible and their closest collaborators, exile most part the Jewish community in Rome. (it was not, therefore, a Christians' persecution, absolutely no-existent at that time!) It is not unlikely that advise Nero to do so, may have been the same Simon Magus which, unlike as pseudo- historic news reported, escaped death, although he reported serious fractures.

Orosius, the Augustine's "factotum", said that the expulsion occurred on 9th year of Claudius, which is leading the various scholars, especially those of catholic "home", to say that this event took place in 50-51, second if you start to count the years of the reign of Tiberius Claudius from 41 or 42. (*) However, if the count is moved to the reign of Claudius Nero, then 9 years above their lead to 64, since Nero ascended to the throne around 54-55.

In addition Orosio said that even Josephus indicated that date (ie 9th year of CLAUDIO). However, nothing of this sort is present today in the current works of famous historical Jewish, Jesus' contemporary. There is no need to exert the mind to understand that such a step was subsequently deleted from the works of Josephus ... Why was this done? ... Maybe because Josephus accompanying these citations with data and information that no one should have read?.... Personally, I imagine how things go ...

Finally, there is the not-witness of the historic Dio Cassius. The latter, in his History of Rome, cites the "simple" warning that Tiberius Claudius gave the Roman Jews of the diaspora, when ascended to power in 41-42, but absurdly he did not refer to the event expulsion of Jews from Rome (certainly much more important than the mere reprimand!), that "Suetonius" (or "who" for him!) place it in the reign of Tiberius Claudius.

_________________

Note:

(*) - Claudio not immediately ascended the throne, following the killing of a nephew and emperor Gaius Caligula, which took place precisely in 41. In fact spent several months before the Senate to ratify the appointment of Claudio Emperor.


My best,


Littlejohn

..

vid

Littlejohn: Can you please reference the book / chapter in which Orosius mentions these things? Thanks

Littlejohn

Paolo Orosio, Hist. Adv. Pag., VII, 6, 15-16 - [15]

(http://digilander.libero.it/Hard_Rai...a/Svetonio.htm )

«Secondo lo storico Paolo Orosio, vissuto nel V secolo, il provvedimento menzionato da Svetonio fu emesso verso il 49 (cfr. Hist. Adv. Pag., VII, 6, 15-16) e non va confuso con quello ricordato nei due passi che abbiamo precedentemente citato. Della stessa opinione sono anche diversi storici moderni, cfr. ad esempio Giorgio Jossa in: I Cristiani e l'impero Romano, Carocci, Roma, 2000, ediz. 2006, pag. 35. Orosio, tuttavia, afferma che anche Giuseppe Flavio avrebbe menzionato questa espulsione dei Giudei:

Paolo Orosio, Hist. Adv. Pag., VII, 6, 15-16 - [15] Nel nono anno dello stesso regno, racconta Giuseppe che per ordine di Claudio i giudei furono espulsi dall'Urbe. Ma più mi colpisce Svetonio, che si esprime così: "Claudio espulse da Roma i Giudei in continuo tumulto per istigazione di Cristo"; [16] dove non si riesce a capire se egli ordinò di infrenare e di reprimere i giudei tumultuanti contro Cristo, oppure se volle che anche i cristiani fossero espulsi con essi, come gente di religione affine.» (*)

Note: the author of this page was one of my "ferocious" opponent in the various forums in which we wrote. Although he tries to appear "objective" in fact he denounces still a long apologetic "faziositÃ*" (biased).


(*) - if you want, I can make you the translation.


All best.


Littlejohn

..

vid

Translation would be very helpful, as I can't read Latin. Thanks in advance.

Littlejohn

Very well, Vid!...Isn't Laitn but italian.


«Secondo lo storico Paolo Orosio, vissuto nel V secolo, il provvedimento menzionato da Svetonio fu emesso verso il 49 (cfr. Hist. Adv. Pag., VII, 6, 15-16) e non va confuso con quello ricordato nei due passi che abbiamo precedentemente citato. Della stessa opinione sono anche diversi storici moderni, cfr. ad esempio Giorgio Jossa in: I Cristiani e l'impero Romano, Carocci, Roma, 2000, ediz. 2006, pag. 35. Orosio, tuttavia, afferma che anche Giuseppe Flavio avrebbe menzionato questa espulsione dei Giudei:

Paolo Orosio, Hist. Adv. Pag., VII, 6, 15-16 - [15] Nel nono anno dello stesso regno, racconta Giuseppe che per ordine di Claudio i giudei furono espulsi dall'Urbe. Ma più mi colpisce Svetonio, che si esprime così: "Claudio espulse da Roma i Giudei in continuo tumulto per istigazione di Cristo"; [16] dove non si riesce a capire se egli ordinò di infrenare e di reprimere i giudei tumultuanti contro Cristo, oppure se volle che anche i cristiani fossero espulsi con essi, come gente di religione affine.»

Traslation:

«According to the historian Paul Orosius, who lived in the fifth century, the measure mentioned by Suetonius was issued to 49 AD (see Hist. Adv. Pag., VII, 6, 15-16) and not to be confused with that mentioned in two passes (or steps) we have previously mentioned. In the same opinion are also several modern historians, cf., for example, George Jossa in: "Christians and the Roman Empire" (Carocci, Rome, 2000, edition. 2006, p.. 35). Orosius, however, says that even Josephus would have mentioned this expulsion of the Jews:

Orosius, Hist. Adv. Pag., VII, 6, 15-16:

[15] In the ninth year of the same kingdom, told Josephus that Claudius ordered Jews expelled from the Urbe (Rome). But more strikes me Suetonius, which is expressed thus: "Claudius expelled from Rome the Jews in continuous turmoil for instigation by Christ"(*) [16] where you can not tell whether he ordered the infrenare and suppress the tumultuanti Jews against Christ, or if he wanted that Christians were expelled with them, as people of similar religion. »


(*) - really Suetonius wrote "Chrestus" and not Christ


I hope it make "good pro" for you!

All the best

Littlejohn

..

andrewcriddle

Orosius' original Latin is online here http://www.attalus.org/latin/orosius.html
The relevant portion is here http://www.attalus.org/latin/orosius7A.html
Andrew Criddle