mountainman

Would the "redeemer of mid-summer" be a christian or a pagan motif? My first impressions seem to indicate that such a title appears entirely pagan, but I have not yet conducted a thorough search of the available literature to determine whether or not this claim was made of Jesus by the earliest of the christian bishops, christian heretics and/or christian authors of the first four centuries.

Thanks in advance for any opinions on this question, and best wishes,



Pete

Toto

What is this about? Who refers to the "redeemer of midsummer?"

mountainman

google has nothing

At what stage did the new process of "christianisation" intrude into the old process of "paganisation"? I am looking at citations to the use of the calendar by christians, associated with the mid-summer rites, and dont find anything until quite late. So, as I have stated, I need to search the patristic literature, for the references to this cultural phenomenom (of mid summer) in association with "a redeemer".

Others may have already done this. It was just a question.

Best wishes,


Pete

Toto

Summer Solstice celebrations

St. John the Baptist

But I have never heard JtB referred to as the midsummer redeemer.

mountainman

There is the text called Valentinus: Summer Harvest. This seems to be ascribed to the Gnostic Valentinus, but is there anything in this text that indicates the author is a christian? Or indeed in which century this was written?


The references provided state:
Best wishes


Pete

Toto

I still don't see any mention of a redeemer. Are you just throwing words around with abandon?

mountainman

Litha

Midsummer may simply refer to the period of time
centered upon the summer solstice,
but more often refers to specific European celebrations
that accompany the actual solstice,
or that take place on the 24th of June
and the preceding evening.

European midsummer-related holidays, traditions, and celebrations
are pre-Christian in origin and have been superficially Christianised
as celebrations of the Nativity of St. John the Baptist
as "Saint John's Eve" festivals.

They are particularly important in Northern Europe -
Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, Norway and Sweden -
but are found also in Ireland, parts of Britain (Cornwall especially),
France, Italy, Malta, Portugal, Spain, other parts of Europe, and elsewhere
- such as Canada, the United States, Puerto Rico,
and even in the Southern Hemisphere (Brazil),
where this imported European celebration
would be more appropriately called Midwinter.

Midsummer is also sometimes referred to
by neo-pagans and others as Litha,
stemming from Bede's De temporum ratione [1]
in which he gave the Anglo-Saxon names
for the months roughly corresponding
to June and July as "se Ærra Liþa" and "se Æfterra Liþa"
(the "early Litha month" and the "later Litha month")
with an intercalary month of "Liþa" appearing after
se Æfterra Liþa on leap years.
The fire festival or Lith- Summer
solstice is a tradition for many pagans.

Solstitial celebrations still centre upon 24 June,
which is no longer the longest day of the year.
The difference between the Julian calendar year (365.2500 days)
and the tropical year (365.2422 days) moved the day
associated with the actual astronomical solstice forward
approximately three days every four centuries,
until Pope Gregory XIII changed the calendar
bringing the solstice to around 21 June.

In the Gregorian calendar, the solstice does shift,
but in the long term it moves only
about one day in 3000 years.


Goel

in Hebrew the participle of the verb gaal, "to redeem"

It is rendered in the Authorized Version "kinsman," Num. 5:8; Ruth 3:12; 4:1,6,8; "redeemer," Job 19:25; "avenger," Num. 35:12; Deut. 19:6, etc. The Jewish law gave the right of redeeming and repurchasing, as well as of avenging blood, to the next relative, who was accordingly called by this name. (See REDEEMER.)


I am of course referring to the name of the major character in the gnostic and/or christian tractate dug up at Nag Hammadi in the 1940's, carbon dated to 348 CE, and entitled The Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles. The name of the main character, the pearl man, was provided by the author of the story, as Lithargoel. Is this Litha + Goel? Is this a stretch of the imagination? This is for you to tell me I imagine. Thanks and best wishes,


Pete

Amaleq13

There's no "of course" about it. This paragraph should have been in your OP, Pete, so folks would know what the hell you're talking about.

Not according to the text:

mountainman

Hi Amaleq,

We all know the success I have met with trying to engage discussion about the text of NHC 6.1, and in this instance, have attempted to present the discussion in a round about manner. I have previously attempted to engage an argument in which is explored the possibility that a pagan wrote this tract, which is completely counter-intuitive due to the name and the contents of the story.


We are dealing with a gnostic author. Multiple levels of meaning perhaps should be the norm and not the exception. The name Lithargoel is not AFAIK by any terms a common name. I cannot find any other reference to it at the moment. Therefore, it occurs to me that the name could have been created by the author, out of the two words Litha (mid summer) and goel (the redeemer or kinsman). NB: I do not put forward this possibility without a suitable disclaimer that this is a conjecture, and could be totally out of the ball park. Neverthless, the thought has occurred to me, and I have presented it for discussion of merit (or otherwise).

However it appears to me that if it is reasonable that the name Lithargoel has been composed in such a manner, then it has been so constructed by a non-christian author.


Best wishes,


Pete

Jeffrey Gibson

Why should anyone engage you on this matter when it's evident you haven't done any real research into the Acts of Peter and the 12, that you don't know what you are talking about when you speak of this texts background and import, let alone what's in it, and that all you really want to do is to is to find ways of forcing this text to fit your preconceptions about what it has to say?


Not according to Douglas Parrott in his the introduction to The Acts of Peter and the 12 Apostles in Robinson's NHL (or via: amazon.co.uk). See too 13–19.
Wilson, R. McL., and Parrott, D. M. 1979. Pp. 197–229 in Nag Hammadi Codices V.2–5 and VI with Papyrus Berolinensis 8502.1 and 4. ed. D. M. Parrott. Leiden. Why are you not familiar with this material?

Perhaps? Have you done much study in the NHL to know whether or not this is the case? Have you even looked at what the practice of the author of the Acts of Peter and the 12 is vis a vis this matter?

Not surprising. Try using books for a change. Or for that matter, try reading the actual text you cite, a text in which its author tells you what the name means.

Leaving aside the fact that it does not follow that beacuse you cannot find references to the name that the name must be derived from the words you think it's derived from, are you actually claiming that the author of The Acts of Peter and the 12 knew Saxon/proto German as well as Hebrew? For it is only in Saxon/proto German that "litha" means "midsummer", yes?

And FWIW, you are assuming what needs to be proven -- that the "litha(r)" bit in this name is derived from the word "litha".

There are thoughts and there are thoughts. Why did you not know -- let alone even take into consideration -- that the "litha" bit of this name is derived -- as the author of the Acts of Peter and the 12 himself tells us it is-- from the Greek word λίθος?

How "reasonable" are conclusions that are based upon a fundamental ignorance of ancient languages, a woeful lack of grounding in NT studies, a wholesale disregard of critical commentaries, absolute non acquaintance with relevant secondary literature on the NHL and the NT apocrypha, "research" done only on the internet, and a question begging claim about the origin and meaning of the "litha(r)" bit of the name Lithargoel, and that are mooted out of an a priori?

It's like someone whose knowledge of illnesses is derived from a few online medical sites saying that his (mis) diagnosis of the cause of a disease of a patient he's never seen, and has no competency to diagnose, is "reasonable".

Please, Pete, spare us your analysis of words in languages you have no knowledge of, and for once in your life do some research in a library.

Jeffrey