Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 12-06-2010, 01:34 PM

It's beginning to seem a lot like Christmas . . .

USA Today: Were the 3 Wise Men from China?

Quote:

Now, a first-ever English translation and detailed analysis of a little-known eighth-century manuscript of a story probably written in the second or third century uncovers a far more substantial version of the wise men story.

Brent Landau, a professor of religious studies at the University of Oklahoma and an expert in ancient biblical languages, found references to a text about the wise men in writings from the Middle Ages and learned that a collector in the 18th century had discovered in a Turkish monastery a manuscript called "the Revelation of the Magi" with a narrative about the wise men. He gave it to the Vatican Library, where the document, written on vellum, a type of parchment made of animal skin, remains archived away in virtual obscurity.

As part of his doctoral dissertation at Harvard Divinity School, Landau spent seven years translating and analyzing the text, written in Syriac, a dialect of Aramaic used by early Christians throughout the Middle East and Asia — and which he happened to be studying. He worked from both a 1927 published text in Syriac and the original document at the Vatican.

Landau's book, Revelation of the Magi: The Lost Tale of the Wise Men's Journey to Bethlehem (or via: amazon.co.uk) (HarperOne) describes the Magi as an ancient mystical sect descended from Seth, the pious and virtuous third son of Adam and Eve. From Seth they inherited a prophecy of "a star of indescribable brightness" someday appearing and "heralding the birth of God in human form." This same star had initially hovered over the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden.

Preview on Google Books

Comment from Paleojudaica

Quote:

It's a pretty good article, but I would be happier with it if it had said more explicitly that The Revelation of the Magi is a manuscript of a second- or third-century CE text that gives a legendary account of Matthew's (probably already legendary) magi. It tells us nothing about any actual magi in the first century, although potentially it could tell us quite a lot about an interesting Christian author (and community?) in the second or third century.

Landau's dissertation is available online.

stephan huller · 12-06-2010, 01:43 PM

I think the earliest reference to the Magi would have to be Celsus

Toto · 12-06-2010, 01:45 PM

Are you saying that Celsus predates Matthew?

Andykiwi · 12-06-2010, 01:48 PM

I believe they were the priests of the old Persian religion, Zoroastrianism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magi

Toto · 12-06-2010, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andykiwi

I believe they were the priests of the old Persian religion, Zoroastrianism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magi

This new book says different. It claims that they were Sethian mystics. Someone will need to update the wiki page.

stephan huller · 12-06-2010, 01:57 PM

Well not really. Celsus is referencing a gospel narrative which seems to resemble Matthew (but isn't exactly the same). I am just trying to find echoes of the three Persian priests outside of Matthew for some context. The Syriac of Ignatius makes reference to the star but no Magi.

Its wierd to make Persian priests pay homage to Jesus. Is it saying that Jesus's coming fulfilled a pre-existent Persian expectation or that Persia would submit themselves before the authority of Christ? Roman priests doing the same thing would be politically dangerous. It would send a bad message

Andykiwi · 12-06-2010, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

...Its wierd to make Persian priests pay homage to Jesus. Is it saying that Jesus's coming fulfilled a pre-existent Persian expectation or that Persia would submit themselves before the authority of Christ? ...

Yes, exactly.

Matthew's gospel is very similar to Zoroastrian moral thinking.

Zoroastrianism version 2.0!

aa5874 · 12-06-2010, 08:47 PM

Justin Martyr mentioned the MAGI from Arabia before Origen in "Against Celsus".

Justin Martyr's "Dialogue with Trypho"

Quote:

For at the time of His birth, Magi who came from Arabia worshipped Him

"Now this king Herod, at the time when the Magi came to him from Arabia...

...Accordingly the Magi from Arabia came to Bethlehem and worshipped the Child....

...and here the Magi who came from Arabia found Him.....

...when the Magi from Arabia did not return to him....

...what I told you was done by the Magi from Arabia....

...having learned from the Arabian Magi about Him...

...of whom the Magi from Arabia had spoken...

as is RECORDED in the MEMOIRS of his APOSTLES, the Magi from Arabia..... worshipped Him.

The MEMOIRS of the APOSTLES was probably the FIRST known Gospel that mentioned the MAGI from ARABIA.

Present day gMatthew, gMark, gLuke and gJohn are 4th century versions of the Gospels and do not state that the wise men were from Arabia or CHINA

Saramago · 12-06-2010, 11:25 PM

Matthew doesn't say how many magi there were. Does "3 wise men" just get assumed because there were 3 gifts, or is there another source specifying there were 3?

OLDMAN · 12-06-2010, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saramago

Matthew doesn't say how many magi there were. Does "3 wise men" just get assumed because there were 3 gifts, or is there another source specifying there were 3?

Glad to see you don't have a degree in Religious Studies from Oklahoma. No there were never three wise men. It was three gifts. This has to be the most mis-quoted verse in the bible. Its the eqivilant of man descending from monkeys quote from Origin of Species.

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12-06-2010, 01:43 PM	#2
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I think the earliest reference to the Magi would have to be Celsus

12-06-2010, 01:45 PM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Are you saying that Celsus predates Matthew?

12-06-2010, 01:48 PM	#4
Andykiwi Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Wellington, NZ Posts: 2,515	I believe they were the priests of the old Persian religion, Zoroastrianism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magi

12-06-2010, 01:57 PM	#6
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Well not really. Celsus is referencing a gospel narrative which seems to resemble Matthew (but isn't exactly the same). I am just trying to find echoes of the three Persian priests outside of Matthew for some context. The Syriac of Ignatius makes reference to the star but no Magi. Its wierd to make Persian priests pay homage to Jesus. Is it saying that Jesus's coming fulfilled a pre-existent Persian expectation or that Persia would submit themselves before the authority of Christ? Roman priests doing the same thing would be politically dangerous. It would send a bad message

12-06-2010, 11:25 PM	#9
Saramago Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: ZIP 981XX Posts: 8,268	Matthew doesn't say how many magi there were. Does "3 wise men" just get assumed because there were 3 gifts, or is there another source specifying there were 3?

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