Jeffrey Gibson

I've been working for the last few weeks on completing a book on the Lord's/Disciples' Prayer that might be published in the Moorehouse Press "Conversations with Scripture" series.

I'd very much like to have comments and criticisms on what I've so far managed to cobble together if you have any inclination to do so.

You'll find a pdf draft of it - under the title of "Book revision 3.pdf" in the files section of my JBGibsonWritings Yahoo Group (you'll have to join to access the file).

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JBGibsonWritings/

Warning, there is a good amount of argumentation and exegesis done there on the basis of Greek. I would prefer that those who might wish to argue any of the points so based and so argued have a working knowledge of Koine.

I would also prefer that those who have hobby horses to ride or axes to grind or bugga boos about the "the holy Ghost" and Justin to declare or metaphysical postures about sin and humankind and Catholics and Mary to proclaim , do not use this thread -- if this message leads to one -- to do so.


To give you a taste of where I'm going with the book (and where I've been assigned to go, here's its current very brief introduction:.

Introduction

One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples." (Lk. 11:1 NRSV)


Every day Christians all over the world, taking the text of Luke 11:1 as their cue, ‘dare’ and “make bold” both privately and publically to utter the words which Jesus gave his disciples when they asked him to teach them to pray. But do Christians actually understand the words they utter? More importantly, granting that they have some understanding of these words (as surely they must, especially if they have read studies of the Prayer or, as is likely, have been instructed by pastors and teachers on what the words mean), is this understanding in any way consonant with what Jesus himself understood the meaning and aim of his words to be? To put this another way: When we pray the prayer Jesus taught “us” to pray, are we really praying it as Jesus intended “us” to pray it. Is what we ask for when we petition God to let his name “be hallowed” and his Kingdom “come” and for bread and forgiveness and not being led into “temptation” really what Jesus thought and meant those who recited his words about God’s name, God’s Kingdom, “our” bread, forgiveness and “temptation” to be asking for? I strongly believe, quite contrary to what is most often thought in this regard, even by important scholars of Jesus’s Prayer, that the answer to this question is no. And in the following pages I take up the task of showing through an extended “conversation” with the bit of scripture traditionally known as “The Lord’s Prayer” that this is so.

Jeffrey

stephan huller

very interesting topic (texting while driving). Tertullian has a book on the Lord's prayer which I once thought was even older than him. There's also a variant reading - "bread of tomorrow" (mahar) as opposed to "daily bread" which might be important. Sorry to offer tagential observations. More interested in what you might have to say.

stephan huller

Hallowed be thy name" is also found in the Kaddish

Jeffrey Gibson

Yep. Thanks. Know about these. And the meaning of mahar is probably the same as what underlies the English expression" daily bread", not something different from, let alone opposed to it.

I'm surprised you didn't mention the "Marcionite" variant for the Kingdom request.

Jeffrey

stephan huller

you said no hobby horses

Jeffrey Gibson

It's not quite the same;

Exalted and sanctified is God's great name
in the world which He has created according to His will
and may He establish His kingdom
in your lifetime and your days
and in the lifetimes of all the House of Israel
speedily and soon.
May His great name be blessed
forever and to all eternity.
Blessed and praised, glorified and exalted
extolled and honored, elevated and lauded

A bigger problem, however, is the date of the Kaddish and how well known it was in the first century CE. Our earliest testimony to the Kaddish as a prescribed daily prayer appears in a tractate of the Babylonian Talmud that dates to the 5th-6th century CE .

Jeffrey

stephan huller

my own sense is that the mahar reading is correct in the sense of "bread of the world to come" and the fact the prayer is recited as communion is happening means the bread of tomorrow is here today with Christ

stephan huller

if my sense is right the leavened/unleavened distinction between western and eastern churches is paralleled by the daily/tomorrow reading

Jeffrey Gibson

The bread reference in the LP/DP is clearly to the manna received by the first sons of God in the wilderness. There is no eucharistic reference in the LP/DP.

But before you tell me what the bread has to be, please read what I have to say about the wording of the bread request and how the grumbling against manna tradition that we find in Numbers and several of the Psalms contextualizes that request.

I am not interested right now in what later liturgical tradition or what a Church Father make of the LP/DP bread. I'm interested in what Matthew and Luke have to say about it.

Jeffrey

stephan huller

but do you the gospel text ever existed apart from the/a liturgy? i don't. so too the Pentateuch