Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spin · 01-17-2008, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

The fact remains that the nation of Israel exists.

Yup, that's politics. It has little to do with the land of the Jews, umm Jehudim, Judea, which is a part of the political entity. The rest of the sons of Jacob, ie the seed of Abraham have been dispersed and lost for millennia. You do desperately want this to be a real and true prophecy so that you overlook the details, don't you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

In the old testament God frequently used men to allow Israel to return to it's homeland. We have the example of Moses dealing with pharoah, daniel & cyrus,etc so it's not surpirsing the God again would move the hearts of men to help create the state of Israel in 1948.

The Zionists were prepared to do anything for a Jewish homeland. Use terror, make agreements with Nazis, start wars. All sounds like god's work, doesn't it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Yes, I agree Israel has not obtained all of the land promised by God, that's why it's called a prophecy (something that is yet to happen).

Convenient. It's called a prophecy when it hasn't happened. It's called fulfillment when you manipulate the truth.

spin

Johnny Skeptic · 01-18-2008, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

The fact remains that the nation of Israel exists.

But NOT the nation that the Bible predicts. Genesis 17:8 says "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, ALL the land of Canaan, for an EVERLASTING possession; and I will be their God." Regarding the words ALL, and EVERLASTING, the prophecy failed on both counts.

What in the world does the partition of Palestine have to do with the word "everlasting"? The correct answer is, nothing at all. The only reasonable explanation for the word is that the writer of Genesis 17:8 believed that God had made an everlasting land promise to Abraham and his descendants, meaning that Abraham and his descendants would always occupy all of the land of ancient Canaan.

May I ask why anyone should believe that God inspired prophecies about the Jews?

The fact that the Jews occupy part of Palestine IS NOT evidence. You might as well claim that if God promised to give Abraham one dollar, and gave him twenty-five cents, that was a fulfillment of prophecy.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-18-2008, 06:26 AM

Message to arnoldo: Since the Jews have conducted a number of negotiations with the Palestinians regarding the distribution of land, it is obvious that God does not have anything to do with it. If God gave all of the ancient land of Canaan to Abraham, do you believe that Abraham acquired the land by negotiation?

By the way, it is a fact that not only the nation of Israel exists, but that over 100 other nations exist.

Since the Jews were kicked out of Palestine on a number of occasions, why do you believe that they will not be kicked out again? All that is takes to occupy land is military power. The Romans had enough military power to conquer and control a large empire for hundreds of years. What does that prove?

sugarhitman · 01-18-2008, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

God doesn't necessarily predict the future since he is the Alpha and Omega and exists outside our limitations of time and space. My take is that he wrote prophecies in order to give encouragement to believers in both the old and new testament eras. Again I don't want to start quoting scripture but in general terms there is a bit where the prophet Daniel is held captive in Babylon, reads the scriptures written down by another prophet, and then realizes that the time is approaching when Israel will return back to their homeland. Often times believers all throughout our human history went through difficult times and reflecting on bible prophecy previously fullfilled gives one a sense of hope and faith to carry on.

Ive already told Johnny this...he doesnt listen to well.

Jack the Bodiless · 01-18-2008, 06:49 AM

You seem to be an expert on "not listening too well", sugarhitman.

BTW:

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Again I don't want to start quoting scripture but in general terms there is a bit where the prophet Daniel is held captive in Babylon, reads the scriptures written down by another prophet, and then realizes that the time is approaching when Israel will return back to their homeland.

...Which was easy enough to do, as the author of this story was writing four centuries later.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-18-2008, 07:01 AM

Message to sugarhitman: In your opening post, you said "The history of the Jews has been one of dispersion and restoration......." Ok, what has been restored that was originally promised? You obviously are not able to comprehend what you read. Genesis 17:8 says "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, ALL the land of Canaan, for an EVERLASTING possession; and I will be their God." Regarding the words ALL, and EVERLASTING, the prophecy failed on both counts.

What in the world does the partition of Palestine have to do with the word "everlasting"? The correct answer is, nothing at all. The only reasonable explanation for the word is that the writer of Genesis 17:8 believed that God had made an everlasting land promise to Abraham and his descendants, meaning that Abraham and his descendants would always occupy all of the land of ancient Canaan. When, contrary to the writer's expectations, the Jews were kicked out of Palestine, lies were necessary in order to cover up the contradiction, so someone made up stories about the Jews being scattered and eventually recovering their homeland. Obviously, "being scattered and eventually recovering their homeland" does not have anything whatsoever to do with the word "everlasting." I don't suppose that you would like to explain what the word "everlasting" means regarding Genesis
17:8, would you? No?, well I didn't think that you would.

May I ask why anyone should believe that God inspired prophecies about the Jews?

Since the Jews were kicked out of Palestine on a number of occasions, why do you believe that they will not be kicked out again?

If God promised to give Frank one dollar, and gave Frank twenty-five cents, in your opinion, was that a fulfilled prophecy?

You and arnoldo are frequently evasive, and refuse to directly reply to arguments from skeptics. The undecided crowd surely interprets evasiveness as weakness. You know that you cannot successfully refute my arguments by directly replying to them in detail. Your apparent interest in defending Christianity is obviously a masquerade. Any committed Christian would be willing to reply to my arguments point by point. You obviously do not believe that God will give the wisdom to successfully refute my arguments. "O ye of little faith."

Which of your bag of evasive tactics will you use now?

arnoldo · 01-18-2008, 07:14 AM

Israel never obtained all of the Promised Land (from Egypt to the Euphrates River) due to disobience thus the prophecy is set for a future time. Note Nehemiah 1:8-9

Quote:

8 "Remember the instruction you gave your servant Moses, saying, 'If you are unfaithful, I will scatter you among the nations, 9 but if you return to me and obey my commands, then even if your exiled people are at the farthest horizon, I will gather them from there and bring them to the place I have chosen as a dwelling for my Name.'

Why should God have given Israel all of the promised land from Egypt to the Euphrates River when they frequently were unfaithful & worshipped idols, just like their neighbors? No, the prophecy is set for a future time and once Israel occupies all of the land it will be everlasting just as God promised Abraham.

sugarhitman · 01-18-2008, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

The fact remains that the nation of Israel exists.

But NOT the nation that the Bible predicts. Genesis 17:8 says "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, ALL the land of Canaan, for an EVERLASTING possession; and I will be their God." Regarding the words ALL, and EVERLASTING, the prophecy failed on both counts.

What in the world does the partition of Palestine have to do with the word "everlasting"? The correct answer is, nothing at all. The only reasonable explanation for the word is that the writer of Genesis 17:8 believed that God had made an everlasting land promise to Abraham and his descendants, meaning that Abraham and his descendants would always occupy all of the land of ancient Canaan.

May I ask why anyone should believe that God inspired prophecies about the Jews?

The fact that the Jews occupy part of Palestine IS NOT evidence. You might as well claim that if God promised to give Abraham one dollar, and gave him twenty-five cents, that was a fulfillment of prophecy.

Ok Johnny I will do this one last time. Why does God gives us prophecies? According to the text

It is to prove that He is God because He only can do such a thing:

"Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts, 'I am the first and I am the last; besides Me there is no God.
And who can proclaim as I do? Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me, since I appointed the ancient people. AND THE THINGS THAT ARE COMING AND SHALL COME. Let them show these to them."

Here God challenges false gods to prove themselves:
"Present your case", says the Lord. "Bring forth your strong reasons," says the King of Jacob. "Let them bring forth and show us what will happen; let them show the former things, what they were, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare to us things to come. Show the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that you are gods."

"For I am God, and there is no other; I am God and there is none like Me,
declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done...." (This was made when God fortold that Cyrus would fulfill His will)

It seems from the text, that God prophesy to prove that He alone is God and that there is no other.

In the book of Joshua after the promise of God to Israel was fulfilled, the Jews made covenants with the people of those lands, allowing them to continue in their idol worship and abominable practices. An Angel told them because of this act, these nations would be a pricking thorn in their side (hostile) and their idol worship would be a trap to them. And that God would no longer drive them out. Read deutoronomy where Moses predicts that the Israelites would rebel against God then God would uproot them from the land then bring them back. Thousands of years before this happened, it was fortold. Arnoldo is right, the fact is Israel is back....and noone can disprove it. :wave:

Jack the Bodiless · 01-18-2008, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Ok Johnny I will do this one last time. Why does God gives us prophecies?

He does not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

It seems from the text, that God prophesy to prove that He alone is God and that there is no other.

And as no such prophecies exist, neither does your God.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Read deutoronomy where Moses predicts that the Israelites would rebel against God then God would uproot them from the land then bring them back.

What part of "Deuteronomy was written after the Exile" did you not understand?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Thousands of years before this happened, it was fortold. Arnoldo is right, the fact is Israel is back....and noone can disprove it.

No, the babylonian Exile wasn't "thousands of years" later, even if Deuteronomy HAD been written by Moses!

Sugarhitman: have you actually never heard of the Babylonian Exile?

Is that why you keep ignoring it?

sugarhitman · 01-18-2008, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Basically, your stating the same argument that the unbelievers hurled at Jesus while he hung on the cross that "If you are the Son of God, come down from the cross so we can all believe." Human nature being what it is no amount of signs and wonders will convince anyone. God has given all sorts of miracles in the old testament and yet Israel frequently backslid. For example when Moses took the Jews out of Egypt they witnessed many miracles and yet once out in the wilderness they worshiped a golden calf and wished to return to Egypt. The question of human suffering is also a mystery however basically it's a result of Adam's disobedience which allowed death and sin to enter the world. Jesus, as the second Adam, obeyed God and redeemed mankind from the curse of sin and death. Israel rejected Jesus as the Messiah and so the age of gentiles (church age) began, however this age is rapidly closing and the kingdom age is approaching. The return of Israel to it's homeland is a great sign and fulfilment of bible prophecy. The Bible also seems to suggest that Israel and the Jews will never again be forced to leave their land again. Ironically most of the "peace process" in the Middle East involves Israel giving up part of it's land which is ridiculous.

Well said my friend. Jesus wrougt many miracles among Israel and yet many disbelieved still. As was the case during the days of Moses. According to Revelations and the prophets after Jesus starts his 1000 year rule there will still be those who will rebel! A true critic or rebel will not be convinced, according to the text ofcourse

. Johnny says that if God gave specific times dates etc. many people will believe. There are cases in the bible where such a thing occured, but still people disbelieved. Herod even tried to prevent one of them. I believe the fact is a rebel will rebel no matter the evidence, miracle etc. I believe that Jesus will prove this during the 1000 year rule. :wave:

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01-18-2008, 06:26 AM	#243
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to arnoldo: Since the Jews have conducted a number of negotiations with the Palestinians regarding the distribution of land, it is obvious that God does not have anything to do with it. If God gave all of the ancient land of Canaan to Abraham, do you believe that Abraham acquired the land by negotiation? By the way, it is a fact that not only the nation of Israel exists, but that over 100 other nations exist. Since the Jews were kicked out of Palestine on a number of occasions, why do you believe that they will not be kicked out again? All that is takes to occupy land is military power. The Romans had enough military power to conquer and control a large empire for hundreds of years. What does that prove?

01-18-2008, 07:01 AM	#246
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to sugarhitman: In your opening post, you said "The history of the Jews has been one of dispersion and restoration......." Ok, what has been restored that was originally promised? You obviously are not able to comprehend what you read. Genesis 17:8 says "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, ALL the land of Canaan, for an EVERLASTING possession; and I will be their God." Regarding the words ALL, and EVERLASTING, the prophecy failed on both counts. What in the world does the partition of Palestine have to do with the word "everlasting"? The correct answer is, nothing at all. The only reasonable explanation for the word is that the writer of Genesis 17:8 believed that God had made an everlasting land promise to Abraham and his descendants, meaning that Abraham and his descendants would always occupy all of the land of ancient Canaan. When, contrary to the writer's expectations, the Jews were kicked out of Palestine, lies were necessary in order to cover up the contradiction, so someone made up stories about the Jews being scattered and eventually recovering their homeland. Obviously, "being scattered and eventually recovering their homeland" does not have anything whatsoever to do with the word "everlasting." I don't suppose that you would like to explain what the word "everlasting" means regarding Genesis 17:8, would you? No?, well I didn't think that you would. May I ask why anyone should believe that God inspired prophecies about the Jews? Since the Jews were kicked out of Palestine on a number of occasions, why do you believe that they will not be kicked out again? If God promised to give Frank one dollar, and gave Frank twenty-five cents, in your opinion, was that a fulfilled prophecy? You and arnoldo are frequently evasive, and refuse to directly reply to arguments from skeptics. The undecided crowd surely interprets evasiveness as weakness. You know that you cannot successfully refute my arguments by directly replying to them in detail. Your apparent interest in defending Christianity is obviously a masquerade. Any committed Christian would be willing to reply to my arguments point by point. You obviously do not believe that God will give the wisdom to successfully refute my arguments. "O ye of little faith." Which of your bag of evasive tactics will you use now?

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