David B

What subject would that be?

Cosmology?

Evolutionary Theory?

Islamic Theology?

Hindu theology?

Buddhist Theology?

Astrology?

Homeopathy?

All the above?

All fields of Science?

If the latter, then I fear that your 95% plus would fall into a minority.

What makes any one of these fields more reliable than any other than any other?

David B (suggests reality checks)

workerforthechuch

Using the minimal facts approach in that video, the empty tomb is not part of it, so you misread. Please do not use false arguments that bear false witness as everyone can see who watches that video that you are wrong. When you bear false witness you are dumbing down yourself.

David B

You haven't persuaded me that the video is worth watching yet, and I can't misread what I haven't read.

David B (is off to bed now)

workerforthechuch

Yes, all the above fields you mentioned are represented as long as they all had made comments on the subject of these various points for the minimal facts. No judgment is made on which field is more reliable.

workerforthechuch

By assuming something about the video that is not the case, you have misread it even though you did not read it. Is it not possible for you to mistakenly assume something about it even though you didnt watch it? I cant convince you to watch it. I can only tell you that you have found no fault with it.

David, your fears are unfounded regarding all fields of science as it is just your assumption which causes the fear.

May you wake up soon before it is too late.

Toto

I am not going to watch those videos. I started to watch the first one, and Habermas does not get to the point very quickly.

Here are the minimal facts, from a Christian source

So, churchworker, you are in a forum where the existence of Jesus is unsure. Maybe he was crucified - certianly there was probably someone named Jesus who was crucified. But we have no real record of his followers outside of the gospels, we don't know if they thought that he appeared bodily to them or merely spiritually. We don't really know much about Paul - it is only the Bible, again, that says that he suddenly changed his views. There is no information in the Bible or otherwise that can show that James suddenly changed, and any idea about this appears to be the results of Christians trying to reconcile contradictions in the Bible.

But even if these are true, they can't be used to show anything. New religions start all the time, and people die for false beliefs.

Would you like to go through these points one by one?

PhilosopherJay

Hi Workforthechurch,

I'm afraid nothing happens when I click on the video links on that page.

However, briefly pondering this business, it occurs to me that real scientific progress was made in the 6th Century B.C.E. when Greek philosophers stopped asking "Who made the world?", and started to ask the question, "What was the world made out from?"

The term "uncreated creator" seems even more primitive than the thought of Anaximander (circa 550 B.C.E.) when he said:

And from what source things arise, to that they return of necessity when they are destroyed, for they suffer punishment and make reparation to one another for their injustice according to the order of time.

"

At least he didn't give the Socratic image of a sculptor God; the absurdity of an indestructible sculpture that sculps the sculptor.

To be more accurate, we should call the universal creator, the "created uncreated," as the concept was created in the minds of people by people, but does not exist elsewear.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

workerforthechuch

For the purposes the proof, in the video these items you listed for the minimal facts are the not the same ones used in the video. Take a look at the approach used.

Let me give you a taste. The family of Jesus, including James, thought Jesus was nuts and living a double life. The minimals facts approach used is that of just using 3 chapters of the whole Bible where most scholars agree are Pauls writings and moving out from there. You may wish to disagree, but just realize you are outside scholarly agreement on your own tangent.

Scholars are virtually unanimous what Paul said in 1 Cor. 15 and Galatians 1 & 2 are his writing when he said he saw Jesus bodily and agreed with the Peter, James and John when they met in which they too said they saw Jesus bodily. The video proves very clearly that it is bodily.

I wish you would watch it because the reasons for you not watching it are invalid.

aa5874

Gary Habernas' lecture on the resurrection contains many serious errors.
1. Paul was not an eyewitness to the death or resurrection of Jesus, according to the NT.
2. According to the Synoptics, all of the disciples that were present at the arrest of Jesus ran away, Peter left after denying him 3 times, they are not eyewitnesses to the death or resurrection of Jesus.
3. Mary Magdalene and the other Marys never saw the body of Jesus change from the state of being dead to a state of being alive. They are only eyewitnesses to an empty tomb.

The lecture on the resurrection is extremely weak, there were very little historical facts and a lot of emotional isuues. He claimed that there are about 17 extra-biblical references to Jesus, yet he did even use a single one to corroborate the resurrection.

Can you name an extra-biblical non-apologetic writer who witnessed Jesus on the cross, being buried and was present at his grave when his body came back to life?

workerforthechuch

1. The video does not say Paul saw Jesus die, but that Paul said he saw Jesus in his resurrected state.
2. There is no claim in the mimal facts approach of seeing Jesus die, only that they saw him before his death and after his death. The gospels do record John present at the death of Jesus on the cross.
3. The women did see the body in the resurrected state. No human saw the exact moment when Jesus was changed into his resurrected body.
I have read his key books on those 17 references, so I know what they are. This does not make up the mimimal facts approach, but was just a side note. Read his books to study those 17 non-Christian sources. I can name you 17 non-Christian sources of which 12 speak of his death and 7 speak of his being deity. Of the 45 sources (in addition to the Bible), 24 altogether speak of His resurrection. But again, these are not part of the minimal facts approach.

Remember, the mimimal facts approach only takes into account that which 95 to 99.9% of scholars agree on. They agree that Gal. 1 & 2 and 1 Cor. 15 are truly what Paul wrote and believed, then we move out from there.