objectivist23

dado- Yes, I know. Judaism has a few of its own problems, but it's definitely better than Christianity IMO.

Stinger- By being born, I mean brought to life. But, I wasn't talking about nitpicking like that, I was talking about it's morality.

starling

The Original Sin is not so much a moral matter but one of control. The idea is, as with any brainwashing technique, if you make someone think badly about themself, they will be more receptive to an external influence. So with the Sin, the goal is to make you have less of a self (since you're just a stupid sinner) and more of a devotion to God (who is gonna save yo' tail). Being born with sin is even more effective, since any time you try to pin a sin on something actual deed, people find ways to pick apart your argument. But anyone who argues can't reach outside the causal universe.

Oh... yeah the above applies to people who say what Adam + Eve did is translated to us all even though we weren't there. It's also a woman bashing thing, pretty reprehensible I guess. As long as we're on the subject, the much feared Nathanial Hawthorne wrote a story called "Rappaccini's Daughter" where Adam is the tempter of Eve. There's a copy online even, read if you dare!
http://www.online-literature.com/hawthorne/152/

fallingblood

Original sin is just something the church made to have everyone believe that they were going to hell and that they had to repent.

WILLOWTREE

Original sin is the phrase used to describe the fall of mankind.

God punished Adam by a sentence of having to work the rest of his life.

God punished Eve by making her serve the inferior the rest of her life.

How brilliant of a punishment to have to serve the inferior (man) !

Chili

Morality? Before the fall of man morality was not an issue and therefore not even part of the equasion. Original sin is what gave man the ability to think for himself and it allowed him or her to built an image upon these thoughts of this newly created idea of self (its our ego consciousness).

So original sin is just a fact of life and takes place within the womb when we first begin to have rational thoughts (about the end of the first trimester). In Gen. this idea of self is built upon the Tree of Knowledge after which time man was called Adam by name. Until then man was man (for he could never remember his name anyway without a conscious mind).

It is not important whether we believe this or not but it becomes more important if we have to deal with menopause when the reversal of this thrust takes place.

Noone is born with sin because the violation of a religious law is required before we can sin. Two things are needed, our knowledge of this law and our conscious violation of this law (or Buddhist could sin and accidently end up in our heaven-- since heaven is for sinners only).

jbernier

Hmmm...is that what the Biblical account of the "fall of humanity" says? I would read the story as saying the opposite: That the ability to think for him/her-self is precisely the problem that humanity faces. Adam and Eve willingly decided to disobey God before committing the act of disobedience - in short the ability to make decisions independent of God was there before the disobedience and indeed made the disobedience possible. That is, at least, the way in which the Biblical account presents this idea.

Uhmmm...but in Genesis the term 'adam (which both means "human" and is also used as a proper name for the first man) is introduced before the tree of life is even mentioned. Indeed, the distinction between 'adam as "human" and 'adam as the man "Adam" is very fuzzy. Unfortunately English translations obscure this by translating 'adam sometimes as "human" (or "man") and sometimes as "Adam".

Chili

Man fell and became human. The prefix -hu was added (-hu from -humi and means earthly) to indicate the second nature of humans.

It was the woman who saw that the TOK [read conscious mind] was good for gaining wisdom, food and beauty and therefore she persuaded man to go for the apple. Woman as woman has no existence of being for she was never created but was taken from man to be the womb of man and procreate man in the image of God. The net effect here is to improve the image of God in man and that is the responsibility of woman . . . for she is the genetic blueprint of man. No the word Adam does not belong in Gen.2. It was first used in "Adam, where are you" and then they felt shame for which an ego identity is needed (cf. Gen.2:25 = naked and no shame and Gen.3:7 naked with shame).

jbernier

Chili, you seem to be basing these arguments upon English translations. Newsflash: Genesis was not written in English. The prefix "hu-" (not "-hu" as that would be a suffix) is not present in the Masoretic Text (the oldest Hebrew text that we have) as it is an English prefix, not a Hebrew one. And, yes, the same word - 'adam - is translated as man, human, and Adam at various times. Quite simply your argument is based upon inaccurate data.

Where does the Biblical text say any of this? Let me think for a moment. Uhmmm...that's right...nowhere.

Chili

Well that's all very nice but don't you see how the prefix hu- was used in the English language to identify this earthly nature (and it doesn't matter what the old Hebrew text tell us for they may be wrong). The point is that it goes along well with the man/human opposite from heavenly to earthly and redeemable because the second nature was added to [the animal] man.

Adam in old Hebrew probable means something like a-dam or an obstackle to be crossed so it can be an achievement to remember.Man was created in Gen.1 and was formed in Gen.2 out of dust (essence precedes existence). Woman was not "created" and therefore has no essence of her own (my "existence of being") but was taken from man to be the vacuum in man and therefore she saw that the TOK was good for gaining food, wisdom and beauty (Gen.3:6). After seeing this the plot thickens with Adam and [the lesser serpent] Eve to set evolution in motion (outside the Garden it is called evolution and inside the garden it is called creation . . . wherefore we still have an evolution/creation debate today).

highpreistess

3. Adam was created in the image of Elohim. Elohim is the plural of El. Male and female, he created he, him. Creation took 7 days, it was completed in 6 as the cube. ON the 7th day, El rested on each side of the cube. Each showing 5 outward sides and one inward side, which is the hidden temple, or the seed of potential. From the hidden temple is heard "I shall be, that which I shall be" or “Hayah, Asher, Hayah."

4. Adam represents all flesh (organic structure) in the universe. Eve represents the formless emptyness that creates the flesh, and then works through it to recreate it. Hence man is made in the image of God, male and female. The spirit (eve) now working through man, perceives him wholly. She is decribed as being naked, with him, therefore she shares every state of being with him. Nakedness is part of Adam's being in Eden. The two are naked, and the serpent is sly.


5. The serpent is that which is past. He is a part of man. He knows the past. He is the elongation of the past motion of the whole image.

6. ‘now there was a tree in the garden which god had forbidden them to eat of.’ (genesis).

7. Eve who was the mother of all living as unconditonal potential is beguiled by the serpent. He bids her eat of the tree and become as god. Eve eats of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, because she sees that the fruit is good. She looked back into the past, and based all future events on past actions. (Wheel of Karma).
She now limited the fruit of her womb to a past based conditional reality to a world of cause and effect.

8. Eve ate of the tree and looked back. She looked back and seen Asher, instead of looking forward and seeing asher. As a result Adam could only live 930 years because eternity lies ahead, and only one generation lies behind. So Eve could only reproduce the image as a generation thereby creating death. And from her womb, the image became two. This was the lateral fall. Lateral man goes backwards from womb to tomb, potential produces back and forth, removing the tree of life as it can only self produce, evolution becoming devolution. Eve could only re-produce the fallen image, not
the whole image of aleph to tav, so everyone is born in the fallen image,
orginal sin.