Freethought & Rationalism Archive

show_no_mercy · 07-27-2009, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiki

Sadducees represented the aristocratic group of the Hasmonean High Priests, who replaced the previous High Priestly lineage. The earlier Priestly lineage had been blamed for allowing the Syrian Emperor Antiochus IV Epiphanes to desecrate the Temple of Jerusalem with idolatrous sacrifices and to martyr monotheistic Jews. The Jewish holiday of Hanukkah celebrates the ousting of the Syrian forces, the rededication of the Temple, and the installment of the new Hasmonean priestly line.

[...]

The Dead Sea Scrolls community, who are probably Essenes, were led by a high priestly leadership, who are thought to be the descendents of the "legitimate" high priestly lineage, which the Hasmoneans ousted. The Dead Sea Scrolls bitterly opposed the current high priests of the Temple. Since Hasmoneans constituted a different priestly line, it was in their political interest to emphasize their family's priestly pedigree that descended from their ancestor, the high priest Zadok, who had the authority to anoint the kingship of Solomon, son of David

Might it be inferred that the DSS community accepted the Hellenization of the Temple? If Jesus or his followers wanted him to fulfill the role of "son of David", wouldn't they need some support from the Essenes and their "legitimate" line of High Priests, since only - supposedly - an "Essene" would be the only legitimate anointer of kingship?

Could Jesus' "clearing of the Temple" leading to his arrest be representative of reversing the Hanukka/Hasmonean rule and re-establishing the rightful High Priest lineage?

bacht · 07-27-2009, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Might it be inferred that the DSS community accepted the Hellenization of the Temple? If Jesus or his followers wanted him to fulfill the role of "son of David", wouldn't they need some support from the Essenes and their "legitimate" line of High Priests, since only - supposedly - an "Essene" would be the only legitimate anointer of kingship?

Could Jesus' "clearing of the Temple" leading to his arrest be representative of reversing the Hanukka/Hasmonean rule and re-establishing the rightful High Priest lineage?

This sort of happened in the 130s when Simon bar-Kochba was recognized as messiah by rabbi Akiva. Of course the temple was already in ruins from the first revolt, and the priests were probably scattered or dead.

The cleansing story doesn't really have a satisfying explanation, since moneychangers were necessary to convert foreign coinage into Jewish shekels, and pilgrims from all over came to Jerusalem and purchased animals to offer on the altar. It appears to echo prophetic actions from the scriptures but without any goal except maybe as a setup for predicting the end of the temple. There's nothing else in the gospels that hints of restoring the "true" priesthood, and the epistles don't say anything either except for the quasi-Platonic letter to the Hebrews, where the Aaronic/Zaddokite priesthood is superceded by Christ.

If the followers of Jesus had priestly reform in mind they could have discussed the little temple of Onias in northern Egypt as a symbol of faithfulness to the Mosaic tradition. afaik no-one in the first century had anything to say about it.

andrewcriddle · 07-27-2009, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiki

Sadducees represented the aristocratic group of the Hasmonean High Priests, who replaced the previous High Priestly lineage. The earlier Priestly lineage had been blamed for allowing the Syrian Emperor Antiochus IV Epiphanes to desecrate the Temple of Jerusalem with idolatrous sacrifices and to martyr monotheistic Jews. The Jewish holiday of Hanukkah celebrates the ousting of the Syrian forces, the rededication of the Temple, and the installment of the new Hasmonean priestly line.

[...]

The Dead Sea Scrolls community, who are probably Essenes, were led by a high priestly leadership, who are thought to be the descendents of the "legitimate" high priestly lineage, which the Hasmoneans ousted. The Dead Sea Scrolls bitterly opposed the current high priests of the Temple. Since Hasmoneans constituted a different priestly line, it was in their political interest to emphasize their family's priestly pedigree that descended from their ancestor, the high priest Zadok, who had the authority to anoint the kingship of Solomon, son of David

Might it be inferred that the DSS community accepted the Hellenization of the Temple?

I don't see how that follows at all. The Hasmoneaans and the DSS community were both hostile to the sort of Hellenization attempted under Antiochus. They disagreed about other things.

Andrew Criddle

spin · 07-27-2009, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiki

Sadducees represented the aristocratic group of the Hasmonean High Priests, who replaced the previous High Priestly lineage. The earlier Priestly lineage had been blamed for allowing the Syrian Emperor Antiochus IV Epiphanes to desecrate the Temple of Jerusalem with idolatrous sacrifices and to martyr monotheistic Jews. The Jewish holiday of Hanukkah celebrates the ousting of the Syrian forces, the rededication of the Temple, and the installment of the new Hasmonean priestly line.

[...]

The Dead Sea Scrolls community, who are probably Essenes,

Hmmm, I'll have to edit that. The "probably" is a crock of shite. Which article was it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiki

...were led by a high priestly leadership, who are thought to be the descendents of the "legitimate" high priestly lineage, which the Hasmoneans ousted. The Dead Sea Scrolls bitterly opposed the current high priests of the Temple. Since Hasmoneans constituted a different priestly line,

The Essenes rejected bloodline (accepting any young person consigned to them), so the thought of bloodlineless high priests is just silly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiki

it was in their political interest to emphasize their family's priestly pedigree that descended from their ancestor, the high priest Zadok, who had the authority to anoint the kingship of Solomon, son of David

Might it be inferred that the DSS community accepted the Hellenization of the Temple?

There is nothing recognizably Hellenistic in the DSS. Nothing. The writers of the scrolls were staunchly torah observant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

If Jesus or his followers wanted him to fulfill the role of "son of David", wouldn't they need some support from the Essenes and their "legitimate" line of High Priests, since only - supposedly - an "Essene" would be the only legitimate anointer of kingship?

There is very little common ground between the scrolls people and christian thought, in fact even between the Essenes and christian thought.

spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Could Jesus' "clearing of the Temple" leading to his arrest be representative of reversing the Hanukka/Hasmonean rule and re-establishing the rightful High Priest lineage?

Clivedurdle · 07-27-2009, 01:44 PM

What if Hebrews is the first xian work?

bacht · 07-27-2009, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

What if Hebrews is the first xian work?

The idea that Christianity began as a spiritual/abstract system works for me, could you elaborate?

Toto · 07-27-2009, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Hmmm, I'll have to edit that. The "probably" is a crock of shite. Which article was it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadducees

spin · 07-28-2009, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Hmmm, I'll have to edit that. The "probably" is a crock of shite. Which article was it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadducees

Thanks. I've just fixed it.

spin

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-27-2009, 01:44 PM	#5
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	What if Hebrews is the first xian work?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.