Freethought & Rationalism Archive

gentleexit · 12-16-2008, 11:21 AM

'Tis the time of year to chase Christmas. Who picked December 25th and when?

December 25th is noted in the Calendar of 354 made in Rome (in 354!) (and yes, some argue interpolation).

The next earliest notice (I think), and more interesting because it's more detailed, is from John Chrysostom. In the 380s he credited the Romans and Pope Julius (reigned from 337) with fixing the date. Julius consulted the archives in Rome to get it. Presumably Julius' own dates allow some to claim Rome first celebrated in 337.

But where did Chrysostom say this? Despite what some say, it's not in a speech on St. Philogonius (Text). Anyone know?

Should we thank good pope (and saint) Julius for this holiday?

gentleexit · 12-17-2008, 10:24 AM

In the late 380s, John Chrysostom spoke of celebrating on the 25th (source) ...

Quote:

defended the new custom. It was no novelty; from Thrace to Cadiz this feast was observed -- rightly, since its miraculously rapid diffusion proved its genuineness. Besides, Zachary, who, as high-priest, entered the Temple on the Day of Atonement, received therefore announcement of John's conception in September; six months later Christ was conceived, i.e. in March, and born accordingly in December.
Finally, though never at Rome, on authority he knows that the census papers of the Holy Family are still there. (P.G., XLVIII, 752, XLIX, 351).

Miraculous spread as proof. And started in Rome (or just backed up?). Christmas spread from the west. The first "Christian" practice that did. A measure of how western Christianity had finally taken off? The first mark of the papacy?

Huon · 12-18-2008, 09:41 AM

From the same source :

Quote:

The first evidence of the feast is from Egypt. About A.D. 200, Clement of Alexandria (Stromata I.21) says that certain Egyptian theologians "over curiously" assign, not the year alone, but the day of Christ's birth, placing it on 25 Pachon (20 May) in the twenty-eighth year of Augustus. [Ideler (Chron., II, 397, n.) thought they did this believing that the ninth month, in which Christ was born, was the ninth of their own calendar.] Others reached the date of 24 or 25 Pharmuthi (19 or 20 April). With Clement's evidence may be mentioned the "De paschæ computus", written in 243 and falsely ascribed to Cyprian (P.L., IV, 963 sqq.), which places Christ's birth on 28 March, because on that day the material sun was created. But Lupi has shown (Zaccaria, Dissertazioni ecc. del p. A.M. Lupi, Faenza, 1785, p. 219) that there is no month in the year to which respectable authorities have not assigned Christ's birth.

A good solution would be the celebration of the birth of Little Jesus on :
- Christmas, 25 December
- 28 March,
- 24 Pharmuthi, 24 April,
- 25 Pharmuthi, 25 April,
- 25 Pachon, 20 May

and perhaps on some other days...

Joan of Bark · 12-18-2008, 07:13 PM

For Christians who believe the soul is implanted at conception, I would think they'd be more interested in the date at which the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, not Jesus' date of birth.

gentleexit · 12-19-2008, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

For Christians who believe the soul is implanted at conception, I would think they'd be more interested in the date at which the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, not Jesus' date of birth.

They were in a way. Chrysostom's reasoning for the date (work from the John the baptist's beginnings) reasoned to when Mary became pregnant.

The birth called out for celebration though - think of all those details evangelists left for ritual and representation. Magi, shepherds, stars. Too much to ignore.

And ala credit for December 25th gave Rome its first Christian claim to fame, promoting a birth celebration meant a first big call out for Mary. She could only grow from here.

Clivedurdle · 12-21-2008, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Pope Julius (reigned from 337) with fixing the date. Julius consulted the archives in Rome to get it.

Just checking - which Rome? New Rome?

And on the day the Holy Spirit lay with a virgin, isn't that Easter, or the Spring Equinox?:devil1:

gentleexit · 12-22-2008, 11:25 AM

There are four "Chrysostom's" on Christmas and two are spurious:

(PG 48) December 20th celebration for a local bishop, he spoke of the imminent “metropolis of all feasts”, without which there could have been no others
(PG 49) December 25th celebrated from “Thrace to Cadiz” and its rapid spread proved its truth. He references census records kept in Rome that showed when Christ was born and at length, derived the date from events in scripture.
(De Solstitia) For some time, a tract from North Africa was attributed to him. It refers to the Sun with “Birthday of the Unconquered”” and asks “Who indeed is so unconquered but our Lord?”. But it isn't his.
(Homily 31?) "the birth of Christ was lately fixed at Rome, in order that while the heathen were busy with their ceremonies, the Christians might perform their rites undisturbed.” What's this?

The last two are used when people say Chrysostom said Christmas was competition for Sun worship. Homily 31 is the mystery. Books and sites cite it but what is it? The attribution may come from Gibbon. I think. I don’t know. Does anyone know?

andrewcriddle · 12-23-2008, 09:54 AM

I don't know where the Chrysostom connection with Julius comes from.
However the origin of the claim that Pope Julius established the date of Christmas seems to go back to a certainly apocryphal correspondence between Julius and either Cyril of Constantinople or Juvenal of Jerusalem (probably originally Cyril of Jerusalem), in which Cyril/Juvenal complains that it is inconvenient celebrating several different things on Epiphany, and Julius after consulting the records says that the birth of Christ should be celebrated on the 25th of December.
(Migne PG 33 1205-1210 Cyril of Jerusalem Spuriae)

Happy Holidays Everyone
Andrew Criddle

12-16-2008, 11:21 AM	#1
gentleexit Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: CA, USA Posts: 202	The First Christmas, thank Julius? 'Tis the time of year to chase Christmas. Who picked December 25th and when? December 25th is noted in the Calendar of 354 made in Rome (in 354!) (and yes, some argue interpolation). The next earliest notice (I think), and more interesting because it's more detailed, is from John Chrysostom. In the 380s he credited the Romans and Pope Julius (reigned from 337) with fixing the date. Julius consulted the archives in Rome to get it. Presumably Julius' own dates allow some to claim Rome first celebrated in 337. But where did Chrysostom say this? Despite what some say, it's not in a speech on St. Philogonius (Text). Anyone know? Should we thank good pope (and saint) Julius for this holiday?

12-22-2008, 11:25 AM	#7
gentleexit Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: CA, USA Posts: 202	calling Homily 31 There are four "Chrysostom's" on Christmas and two are spurious: (PG 48) December 20th celebration for a local bishop, he spoke of the imminent “metropolis of all feasts”, without which there could have been no others (PG 49) December 25th celebrated from “Thrace to Cadiz” and its rapid spread proved its truth. He references census records kept in Rome that showed when Christ was born and at length, derived the date from events in scripture. (De Solstitia) For some time, a tract from North Africa was attributed to him. It refers to the Sun with “Birthday of the Unconquered”” and asks “Who indeed is so unconquered but our Lord?”. But it isn't his. (Homily 31?) "the birth of Christ was lately fixed at Rome, in order that while the heathen were busy with their ceremonies, the Christians might perform their rites undisturbed.” What's this? The last two are used when people say Chrysostom said Christmas was competition for Sun worship. Homily 31 is the mystery. Books and sites cite it but what is it? The attribution may come from Gibbon. I think. I don’t know. Does anyone know?

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12-18-2008, 07:13 PM	#4
Joan of Bark Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pua, in northern Thailand Posts: 2,823	For Christians who believe the soul is implanted at conception, I would think they'd be more interested in the date at which the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, not Jesus' date of birth.

12-23-2008, 09:54 AM	#8
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	I don't know where the Chrysostom connection with Julius comes from. However the origin of the claim that Pope Julius established the date of Christmas seems to go back to a certainly apocryphal correspondence between Julius and either Cyril of Constantinople or Juvenal of Jerusalem (probably originally Cyril of Jerusalem), in which Cyril/Juvenal complains that it is inconvenient celebrating several different things on Epiphany, and Julius after consulting the records says that the birth of Christ should be celebrated on the 25th of December. (Migne PG 33 1205-1210 Cyril of Jerusalem Spuriae) Happy Holidays Everyone Andrew Criddle

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