Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 01-04-2006, 07:43 PM

For purposes of this thread, I will assume that the God of the Bible exists and that he created the universe, but I will not assume that he is good, loving, and fair.

Matthew 19:17 says "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

Matthew 7:21-22 say "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Because casting out devils is mentioned and Jesus said elsewhere that Satan cannot cast out Satan, we know that the verses are talking about people who are Christians and will lose their salvation, in other words, Christians who deliberately and repeatedly refuse to keep God’s commandments.

Sins of omission and sins of commission are two entirely separate issues. While God will forgive sins of omission, he will not forgive deliberate and repeated sins of commission, as clearly proven by Matthew 7:21-22 which I quoted previously.

Now that I have established that believers are definitely required to obey God’s commandments in order to go to heaven, let’s take a look at the two commandments upon which all of the law and the prophets depend:

Matthew 22:35-40 say “Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.�?

Considering the following scriptures, those are impossible and unfair requirements for God to demand of skeptics if they wish to go to heaven:

Exodus 4:11 says "And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord?" If a human caused a person to become deaf or blind, he would be sent to prison, and with Christians’ blessings I might add.

Revelation 9:1-6 say "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

Revelation 14:9-11 say "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

To require of skeptics that in order for them to go to heaven they must love and obey the God who is described in the aforementioned scriptures would be as impossible a task for them as it would be for them to believe that 2+2=5. In other words, God has stacked the deck against skeptics.

There are literally thousands of good reasons for people not to trust the Bible. One very good reason is that any rational and/or loving being who wanted people to accept him and not go to hell would makes the odds 100% that everyone would know of his existence and that he had their best interests at heart. He would confirm subjective spiritual/emotional experience with objective tangible experiences. Some of the texts claim that he did exactly that, but we know that for some strange and unexplained reason he has abandoned that approach today. John 2:23 says “Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.�? John 3:2 says “The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.�? In the NIV, John 10:37-38 say "Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." In the KJV, Matthew 4:24 says "And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them."

It is interesting to note that the texts say that BOTH SIDES acknowledged that Jesus had supernatural powers. The Pharisees believed that Jesus had supernatural powers, but that his powers came from Beelzebub. Today, both sides DO NOT acknowledge that God has supernatural powers, so the evidence that we have today is not nearly the same as it supposedly was back then.

It is quite suspicious that God on some occasions maximized the odds to 100% that people would know about his existence and his supernatural powers, only to completely abandon his supposed purpose of giving humans sufficient evidence of his existence and supernatural powers. This evidence alone is all that rational minded people need to reject the God of the Bible.

In spite of the supposed facts that Jesus performed many miracles, and that after he rose from the dead was seen by over 500 people, in the NIV, Acts 14:3 says "So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders." Do Christians not find it strange that there was a need for such confirmations?

At best, if the God of the Bible exists, he is inconsistent, bi-polar, or amoral. At worst, he is a monster and should be rejected. Creating the universe most certainly does not give anyone a license to act like God acts, and creating the universe most certainly does not give a supposedly loving God the right to make impossible demands of skeptics when he is easily able to clearly show himself to everyone so that everyone who rejected him would have to admit that they had made fully informed decisions. If heaven and hell are actually at stake, the only kinds of decisions that would be fair would be fully informed decisions. God could not possibly have anything to lose by clearly showing himself to everyone, and mankind would have everything to gain if he did so. True love, tolerance, and forgiveness could never do anything less.

Boomeister · 01-05-2006, 06:26 PM

I think I know why people aren't responding to your OP. I started reading it, because it sounded interesting. But as I read more, my eyes started to cross. Maybe you can break it down some. I'm not so sure what you're trying to say.

Boomeister

rhutchin · 01-05-2006, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

For purposes of this thread, I will assume that the God of the Bible exists and that he created the universe, but I will not assume that he is good, loving, and fair.

Matthew 19:17 says "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

Matthew 7:21-22 say "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Because casting out devils is mentioned and Jesus said elsewhere that Satan cannot cast out Satan, we know that the verses are talking about people who are Christians and will lose their salvation, in other words, Christians who deliberately and repeatedly refuse to keep God’s commandments.

Sins of omission and sins of commission are two entirely separate issues. While God will forgive sins of omission, he will not forgive deliberate and repeated sins of commission, as clearly proven by Matthew 7:21-22 which I quoted previously.

Now that I have established that believers are definitely required to obey God’s commandments in order to go to heaven, let’s take a look at the two commandments upon which all of the law and the prophets depend:

Matthew 22:35-40 say “Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.�?

Considering the following scriptures, those are impossible and unfair requirements for God to demand of skeptics if they wish to go to heaven:

Exodus 4:11 says "And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord?" If a human caused a person to become deaf or blind, he would be sent to prison, and with Christians’ blessings I might add.

Revelation 9:1-6 say "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

Revelation 14:9-11 say "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

To require of skeptics that in order for them to go to heaven they must love and obey the God who is described in the aforementioned scriptures would be as impossible a task for them as it would be for them to believe that 2+2=5. In other words, God has stacked the deck against skeptics.

There are literally thousands of good reasons for people not to trust the Bible. One very good reason is that any rational and/or loving being who wanted people to accept him and not go to hell would makes the odds 100% that everyone would know of his existence and that he had their best interests at heart. He would confirm subjective spiritual/emotional experience with objective tangible experiences. Some of the texts claim that he did exactly that, but we know that for some strange and unexplained reason he has abandoned that approach today. John 2:23 says “Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.�? John 3:2 says “The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.�? In the NIV, John 10:37-38 say "Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." In the KJV, Matthew 4:24 says "And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them."

It is interesting to note that the texts say that BOTH SIDES acknowledged that Jesus had supernatural powers. The Pharisees believed that Jesus had supernatural powers, but that his powers came from Beelzebub. Today, both sides DO NOT acknowledge that God has supernatural powers, so the evidence that we have today is not nearly the same as it supposedly was back then.

It is quite suspicious that God on some occasions maximized the odds to 100% that people would know about his existence and his supernatural powers, only to completely abandon his supposed purpose of giving humans sufficient evidence of his existence and supernatural powers. This evidence alone is all that rational minded people need to reject the God of the Bible.

In spite of the supposed facts that Jesus performed many miracles, and that after he rose from the dead was seen by over 500 people, in the NIV, Acts 14:3 says "So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders." Do Christians not find it strange that there was a need for such confirmations?

At best, if the God of the Bible exists, he is inconsistent, bi-polar, or amoral. At worst, he is a monster and should be rejected. Creating the universe most certainly does not give anyone a license to act like God acts, and creating the universe most certainly does not give a supposedly loving God the right to make impossible demands of skeptics when he is easily able to clearly show himself to everyone so that everyone who rejected him would have to admit that they had made fully informed decisions. If heaven and hell are actually at stake, the only kinds of decisions that would be fair would be fully informed decisions. God could not possibly have anything to lose by clearly showing himself to everyone, and mankind would have everything to gain if he did so. True love, tolerance, and forgiveness could never do anything less.

The response to the above was answered by Paul when he said in Romans, "There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God."

In 1 Corinthians, Paul expands on this when he says, "Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness."

What is "fully-informed" to one who has no desire to seek God? What is the stumbling block to which Paul refers? It is that men see no need for God.

It is not God that must be revealed but the man who must be revealed to himself. The Bible reveals man as he is and not how he pictures himself.

What is required for a person to go to heaven? The first step is for a person to discover who he is without all the pretense of being something he is not.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-05-2006, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

The response to the above was answered by Paul when he said in Romans, "There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God."

In 1 Corinthians, Paul expands on this when he says, "Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness."

What is "fully-informed" to one who has no desire to seek God? What is the stumbling block to with Paul refers? It is that men see no need for God.

It is not God that must be revealed but the man who must be revealed to himself. The Bible reveals man as he is and not how he pictures himself.

What is required for a person to go to heaven? The first step is for a person to discover who he is without all the pretense of being something he is not.

You are still unable to understand that the Bible clearly says that no one can go to heaven unless he loves and obeys God (I provided you with the proof), but it is impossible for skeptics to love the God who is depicted in the Bible. The Bible might as well require that skeptics believe that 2+2=5 in order to go to heaven. In my previous post, I said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JS

Exodus 4:11 says "And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord?" If a human caused a person to become deaf or blind, he would be sent to prison, and with Christians’ blessings I might add.

Revelation 9:1-6 say "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

Revelation 14:9-11 say "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

May I ask how you can possibly love a God like that with all of your heart, soul, and mind? As I said, if a human made someone blind or deaf, he would be sent to prison, and with your blessing I might add.

Do you dispute that the Bible requires that believers must love and obey God in order to go to heaven? If so, as I said in my previous post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JS

Matthew 19:17 says "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." [How much clearer can it possibly get, rhutchin?]

Matthew 7:21-22 say "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Because casting out devils is mentioned and Jesus said elsewhere that Satan cannot cast out Satan, we know that the verses are talking about people who are Christians and will lose their salvation, in other words, Christians who deliberately and repeatedly refuse to keep God’s commandments.

Sins of omission and sins of commission are two entirely separate issues. While God will forgive sins of omission, he will not forgive deliberate and repeated sins of commission, as clearly proven by Matthew 7:21-22 which I quoted previously.

You said "What is 'fully-informed' to one who has no desire to seek God? What is the stumbling block to with Paul refers? It is that men see no need for God." You are grossly misinformed. Over 75% of the people in the world are religious, so they definitely seek to believe in a God, and for the very same reason that you do, in order to obtain present and eternal comfort. You do not seek a particular God. You seek eternal comfort, and you do not really care who provides it.

Regarding "What is 'fully-informed' to one who has no desire to seek God"?, what I meant was in reference to the following scriptures:

John 2:23 says "Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did."

John 3:2 says "The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him."

On those occasions, the eyewitnesses were fully informed that Jesus had supernatural powers, and they chose to follow him because his supernatural powers confirmed his message, not because his message confirmed his supernatural powers. Acts 14:3 says "Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands." 'The NIV translates the verse "So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders." What I am getting at is that since the texts show that God only very selectively confirmed subjective spiritual/emotional experiences with much more convincing objective tangible experiences, rational minded people are left with only two choices, either to conclude that God is not really serious about letting as many people as possible know about his existance, or to much more logically conclude that since the Bible says that God is loving, and since it is not loving to deliberately show the truth to some people and conceal the truth from other people, the God of the Bible does not exist.

Regarding "It is that men see no need for God," nothing could possibly be further from the truth. Since skeptics need loving human fathers, how much more do they need a loving heavenly father who could provide them with a comfortable eternal life? No skeptic would be any less interested in becoming a Christian than you were if he believed that the Bible is true.

It is sad that your question the motives of all skeptics, but the Bible forces you to do it or you won't go to heaven. The Bible does not allow Christians to conclude that any skeptic has ever made an honest mistake, but that cannot possibly be true. Some skeptics are very loving, kind, helpful, decent people. Why in the world would they ever reject anyone who they believed was loving, kind, helpful, and decent? It would be completely out of character for them to do such a thing. Some non-Christians are much more loving, kind, helpful, and decent than the typical Christian, most likely including you. Why don't you give most of your assets away so that you can help needy people? The texts say that Christians should lay up treasures (good works and thoughts) in heaven. How many treasures have you laid up in heaven? If the Bible is true, while the pleasures that you have (possibly watching ultimately meaningless football games) in this life are fleeting and of no eternal significance, the pleasures and goods that you forsake in this life for the benefit of other people would enable you to reap significant eternal rewards. What kind of Christian are you, one who loves his fellow man as he loves himself, or one who frequently indulges himself in fleeting earthly pleasures purely out of self-interest at the expense of needy people who need your time and money?

May I ask why you became a Christian? Did you have a choice in the matter? What scriptures convinced you to love God? Are you an inerrantist? If so, why?

By the way, as far as I know, only Paul mentioned predestination. If only Paul mentioned it, you have a problem. First of all, uncorroborated testimony is not at all convincing. Second of all, Paul was known for having completely unverifiable visions, and predestination might have been one of them.

hatsoff · 01-05-2006, 07:32 PM

You've got to be careful not to take passages out of context. You'll find many quotations throughout the Gospels where Jesus says something to the effect of: if you sin in such and such a way, you won't enter the Kingdom of Heaven. This is because sin is punishable by damnation, and Jesus wanted to make that very clear. However, Jesus paid our price for us, and so our sin is washed away.

As for God being "loving" and "just," I can understand someone's objections. Why would a loving God send folks off to Hell? Consider Paul's explanation, in Romans 9:

Quote:

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory

In modern terms, you might say that one must trust in God, even if what he's doing seems unfair or immoral. After all, who is best equipped to make such judgments: us humans or an omniscient God?

RUmike · 01-05-2006, 08:01 PM

Is going to heaven right after we die even a biblical concept? What evidence is there that this concept existed in Jesus' day? It is my understanding that "the kingdom of God" refered to what it would be like when God ruled the Earth -- not Rome. And in the mean time, the dead resided in Sheol until their physical bodies were resurrected.

hatsoff · 01-05-2006, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RUmike

Is going to heaven right after we die even a biblical concept? What evidence is there that this concept existed in Jesus' day? It is my understanding that "the kingdom of God" refered to what it would be like when God ruled the Earth -- not Rome. And in the mean time, the dead resided in Sheol until their physical bodies were resurrected.

Hebrews 11:

Quote:

11By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he[a]considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

2 Peter 3:

Quote:

10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.[a]
11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.[b]That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

Romans 8:

Quote:

16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that[i] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

We don't really know what Heaven is like, exactly, or how it works. You're right to question whether or not we go to Heaven immediately after death, or if we must wait. Heck, maybe time has no meaning there. But the point is, the Bible talks of a Heaven, and it is for Christian believers.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-05-2006, 09:29 PM

Message to rhutchin: If the Bible said that only one person would go to heaven, would you defend it as vigorously as you do? How about if it said that no one would go to heaven?

hatsoff · 01-05-2006, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Message to rhutchin: If the Bible said that only one person would go to heaven, would you defend it as vigorously as you do? How about if it said that no one would go to heaven?

What ifs are endless and pointless. What if the Bible told us not to believe anything Johnny Skeptic says? What if it had accurately predicted Pearl Harbor? What if it had been written in Piglatin?

These what ifs get us nowhere.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-05-2006, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hatsoff

What ifs are endless and pointless. What if the Bible told us not to believe anything Johnny Skeptic says? What if it had accurately predicted Pearl Harbor? What if it had been written in Piglatin?

These what ifs get us nowhere.

My purpose in asking rhutchin those questions was to eventually prove that the reason that he vigorously defends the Bible is not because he finds the claim that it is true to be convincing, but because he believes that he will enjoy a comfortable eternal life if the Bible is true. Rhutchin most certainly would not choose to defend any book that promised that he would be sent to hell, even if the evidence was reasonably good that the book was true. Rather, he would go out of his way to disprove the book. All religious people defend their perceived vested interests because of promised rewards. Who would follow a religion that did not promise rewards? Perceived vested interests overrule logic every time hands down.

01-04-2006, 07:43 PM	#1
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	What is required for a person to go to heaven? For purposes of this thread, I will assume that the God of the Bible exists and that he created the universe, but I will not assume that he is good, loving, and fair. Matthew 19:17 says "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." Matthew 7:21-22 say "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Because casting out devils is mentioned and Jesus said elsewhere that Satan cannot cast out Satan, we know that the verses are talking about people who are Christians and will lose their salvation, in other words, Christians who deliberately and repeatedly refuse to keep God’s commandments. Sins of omission and sins of commission are two entirely separate issues. While God will forgive sins of omission, he will not forgive deliberate and repeated sins of commission, as clearly proven by Matthew 7:21-22 which I quoted previously. Now that I have established that believers are definitely required to obey God’s commandments in order to go to heaven, let’s take a look at the two commandments upon which all of the law and the prophets depend: Matthew 22:35-40 say “Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.�? Considering the following scriptures, those are impossible and unfair requirements for God to demand of skeptics if they wish to go to heaven: Exodus 4:11 says "And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord?" If a human caused a person to become deaf or blind, he would be sent to prison, and with Christians’ blessings I might add. Revelation 9:1-6 say "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them." Revelation 14:9-11 say "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." To require of skeptics that in order for them to go to heaven they must love and obey the God who is described in the aforementioned scriptures would be as impossible a task for them as it would be for them to believe that 2+2=5. In other words, God has stacked the deck against skeptics. There are literally thousands of good reasons for people not to trust the Bible. One very good reason is that any rational and/or loving being who wanted people to accept him and not go to hell would makes the odds 100% that everyone would know of his existence and that he had their best interests at heart. He would confirm subjective spiritual/emotional experience with objective tangible experiences. Some of the texts claim that he did exactly that, but we know that for some strange and unexplained reason he has abandoned that approach today. John 2:23 says “Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.�? John 3:2 says “The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.�? In the NIV, John 10:37-38 say "Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." In the KJV, Matthew 4:24 says "And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them." It is interesting to note that the texts say that BOTH SIDES acknowledged that Jesus had supernatural powers. The Pharisees believed that Jesus had supernatural powers, but that his powers came from Beelzebub. Today, both sides DO NOT acknowledge that God has supernatural powers, so the evidence that we have today is not nearly the same as it supposedly was back then. It is quite suspicious that God on some occasions maximized the odds to 100% that people would know about his existence and his supernatural powers, only to completely abandon his supposed purpose of giving humans sufficient evidence of his existence and supernatural powers. This evidence alone is all that rational minded people need to reject the God of the Bible. In spite of the supposed facts that Jesus performed many miracles, and that after he rose from the dead was seen by over 500 people, in the NIV, Acts 14:3 says "So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders." Do Christians not find it strange that there was a need for such confirmations? At best, if the God of the Bible exists, he is inconsistent, bi-polar, or amoral. At worst, he is a monster and should be rejected. Creating the universe most certainly does not give anyone a license to act like God acts, and creating the universe most certainly does not give a supposedly loving God the right to make impossible demands of skeptics when he is easily able to clearly show himself to everyone so that everyone who rejected him would have to admit that they had made fully informed decisions. If heaven and hell are actually at stake, the only kinds of decisions that would be fair would be fully informed decisions. God could not possibly have anything to lose by clearly showing himself to everyone, and mankind would have everything to gain if he did so. True love, tolerance, and forgiveness could never do anything less.

01-05-2006, 09:29 PM	#8
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	What is required for a person to go to heaven? Message to rhutchin: If the Bible said that only one person would go to heaven, would you defend it as vigorously as you do? How about if it said that no one would go to heaven?

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01-05-2006, 06:26 PM	#2
Boomeister Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: The Big State in the South Posts: 448	I think I know why people aren't responding to your OP. I started reading it, because it sounded interesting. But as I read more, my eyes started to cross. Maybe you can break it down some. I'm not so sure what you're trying to say. Boomeister

01-05-2006, 08:01 PM	#6
RUmike Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 491	Is going to heaven right after we die even a biblical concept? What evidence is there that this concept existed in Jesus' day? It is my understanding that "the kingdom of God" refered to what it would be like when God ruled the Earth -- not Rome. And in the mean time, the dead resided in Sheol until their physical bodies were resurrected.

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