Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 08-20-2011, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Religion offered two major benefits for most people in the Roman Empire: protection and belonging. You and I may have learned about the classical Greek gods in high school, but the early Christians (those who were not Jews) inhabited a richly populated spiritual universe. Local gods, regional gods, professional gods, family gods and household gods expected recognition and required satisfaction. Evil spiritual forces also lurked, threatening to harm the unobservant. Acknowledging the gods, whether through direct personal worship or through public festivals and ceremonies, provided protection for households and communities. Moreover, honoring the gods fostered community, as trade guilds, burial societies, ethnic groups, and extended families linked religion to their diverse group identities.

Earliest Christianity offered one alternative movement in that complicated spiritual economy. Emerging from Judaism, a significant ethnic and religious minority identity in its own right, the first churches stood among those ancient religious movements that offered individual mystical experience, promised the ability to transcend death and cultivated alternative communal relationships. Their competition included popular philosophical movements that trained people to discipline themselves in order to transcend suffering and respond to Fate (capital F) with freedom and equanimity.

J-D · 08-20-2011, 06:41 PM

There's a deep confusion in failing to distinguish between those statements which describe what was true and those statements which describe only what people believed to be true.

aeebee50 · 08-21-2011, 05:04 AM

I like how the first churches started in the homes of the believeres which cut down on costs and allowed for close learning.

mountainman · 08-21-2011, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Imagine . . .

Quote:

"Those earliest churches displayed one particularly remarkable trait: a passion to keep in touch with one another. We see this most clearly in Paul's letters, many of which include greetings and news from cities all over the eastern mediterranean world. Paul sends and receives reports from one city after another."

Do we not also need to imagine who forged the known forged Pauline letters, and when, and for what purpose? Imagining the first Christians as pious forgers (at least in part if not in whole) is entirely natural.

aa5874 · 08-23-2011, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Imagine . . .

Quote:

"Those earliest churches displayed one particularly remarkable trait: a passion to keep in touch with one another. We see this most clearly in Paul's letters, many of which include greetings and news from cities all over the eastern mediterranean world. Paul sends and receives reports from one city after another."

Do we not also need to imagine who forged the known forged Pauline letters, and when, and for what purpose? Imagining the first Christians as pious forgers (at least in part if not in whole) is entirely natural.

Well, the Pauline writings are NOT really forgeries since there is no evidence that an actual character named Paul wrote any epistles in the 1st century.

The Pauline writings are part of a FRAUDULENT Scheme with the author of Acts to produce a BOGUS history of the Jesus cult.

The author of Acts claimed that the apostles began to preach about Jesus Christ on the day of Pentecost when they were FILLED with the Promised Holy Ghost and that they became MULTI-LINGUAL.

"Paul" corroborated the FICTION in Acts.

"Paul" claimed he SPOKE in tongues MORE than anyone else.

1Co 14:18 -

Quote:

I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all

It would have been virtually IMPOSSIBLE for any disciple to have miraculously become fluent in an unknown language.

The Pauline writings are NOT forgeries but blatant FRAUD.

aupmanyav · 08-24-2011, 03:54 AM

Probably cults and Indian gurus can give you a sterotype. The guru going around various cities, staying with his/her followers, the followers donating for the benefit of the cult or sect. In some sects the followers are expected to donate quite heavily - Swaminarayan, Agha Khan, Daudi Bohras, Vallabha sect., etc. (including islam - 20% for Allah and his apostle, whether be it money, be it camels, slaves, or women). Normally, they are traders (like the early jew/christians might have been - who else would have money?) and controlled strictly by the sect (People like Paul with his many rules).

mountainman · 08-24-2011, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Imagine . . .

Quote:

"Those earliest churches displayed one particularly remarkable trait: a passion to keep in touch with one another. We see this most clearly in Paul's letters, many of which include greetings and news from cities all over the eastern mediterranean world. Paul sends and receives reports from one city after another."

Do we not also need to imagine who forged the known forged Pauline letters, and when, and for what purpose? Imagining the first Christians as pious forgers (at least in part if not in whole) is entirely natural.

Well, the Pauline writings are NOT really forgeries since there is no evidence that an actual character named Paul wrote any epistles in the 1st century.

The Pauline writings are part of a FRAUDULENT Scheme with the author of Acts to produce a BOGUS history of the Jesus cult.

The author of Acts claimed that the apostles began to preach about Jesus Christ on the day of Pentecost when they were FILLED with the Promised Holy Ghost and that they became MULTI-LINGUAL.

"Paul" corroborated the FICTION in Acts.

"Paul" claimed he SPOKE in tongues MORE than anyone else.

1Co 14:18 -

Quote:

I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all

It would have been virtually IMPOSSIBLE for any disciple to have miraculously become fluent in an unknown language.

The Pauline writings are NOT forgeries but blatant FRAUD.

Arnaldo Momigliano writing about ancient history puts it like this:

Quote:

Hence the interesting conclusion that the notion of forgery
has a different meaning in historiography than it has in
other branches of literature or of art. A creative writer
or artist perpetuates a forgery every time he intends
to mislead his public about the date and authorship
of his own work

But only a historian can be guilty of forging evidence
or of knowingly used forged evidence in order to
support his own historical discourse. One is never
simple-minded enough about the condemnation of
forgeries. Pious frauds are frauds, for which one
must show no piety - and no pity.

source

Who was the historian in charge of "Pauline" research?

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08-20-2011, 06:41 PM	#2
J-D Moderator - General Religious Discussions Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New South Wales Posts: 27,330	There's a deep confusion in failing to distinguish between those statements which describe what was true and those statements which describe only what people believed to be true.

08-21-2011, 05:04 AM	#3
aeebee50 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 5,810	I like how the first churches started in the homes of the believeres which cut down on costs and allowed for close learning.

08-24-2011, 03:54 AM	#6
aupmanyav Contributor Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New Delhi, India Posts: 18,926	Probably cults and Indian gurus can give you a sterotype. The guru going around various cities, staying with his/her followers, the followers donating for the benefit of the cult or sect. In some sects the followers are expected to donate quite heavily - Swaminarayan, Agha Khan, Daudi Bohras, Vallabha sect., etc. (including islam - 20% for Allah and his apostle, whether be it money, be it camels, slaves, or women). Normally, they are traders (like the early jew/christians might have been - who else would have money?) and controlled strictly by the sect (People like Paul with his many rules).

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