Half-Life

Fit of rage in temple:

They came to Jerusalem, and on entering the temple area he began to drive out those selling and buying there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves.
16
He did not permit anyone to carry anything through the temple area.
17
Then he taught them saying, "Is it not written: 'My house shall be called a house of prayerfor all peoples'? But you have made it a den of thieves."


This is how the "most holy and perfect God" acts? Like a child? Couldn't God have calmly talked with them about why it's wrong and simply brought the tables elsewhere? or couldn't he have said to them, "You silly mortals. God is not confined to a house. God is everywhere!"

Why did the "perfect God" overturn tables in rage?

Donkey stealing:

When they drew near to Jerusalem, to Bethphage and Bethany at the Mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples
2
and said to them, "Go into the village opposite you, and immediately on entering it, you will find a colt tethered on which no one has ever sat. Untie it and bring it here.
3
If anyone should say to you, 'Why are you doing this?' reply, 'The Master has need of it and will send it back here at once.'"
4
So they went off and found a colt tethered at a gate outside on the street, and they untied it.
5
Some of the bystanders said to them, "What are you doing, untying the colt?"
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They answered them just as Jesus had told them to, and they permitted them to do it.
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So they brought the colt to Jesus and put their cloaks over it. And he sat on it.
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Many people spread their cloaks on the road, and others spread leafy branches that they had cut from the fields.
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Those preceding him as well as those following kept crying out: "Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!
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Blessed is the kingdom of our father David that is to come! Hosanna in the highest!"

Notice in verse 3, Jesus says they will bring it back. Funny how there is no mention of the disciples returning it anywhere. Does this make Jesus a thief?

I know many people might say, "Just because it's not written down doesn't mean they didn't return it!"

If this is true, why did the all-knowing God mention he was going to return it? The idea that he somehow "forgot" to mention returning the donkey in his "infallible word" seems ridiculous. Also, why couldn't jesus just snap his fingers and bring a donkey into existence in front of him? Why did he have to steal someone else's donkey? Surely this would've made more believers seeing a donkey come into existence from nothing.


I seriously can not believe jesus stole someone's donkey when he is God Himself. What cruelty on his part.

I am looking forward to the excuses that I would have given just a few weeks ago.

Gamera

Your assumption that a fit of rage in the Temple (even your characterization of it) is not possible for a divinity may or may not be true (whatever that means), but it certainly isn't true for the Jesus that is portrayed in historical Christianity. So who are you talking about?

As to the donkey, do you think maybe there is some symbolic meaning there that has nothing to do with how it was procured?

Half-Life

Supposedly, there is a prophecy of jesus riding into town on a donkey. So, Jesus sees a donkey and tells his disciples to get it and they will return it.

There is no way around this question:

Why did god Himself mention the donkey would be returned and fail to mention the reutrn in his "infallible Word?"

Maybe the symbolism is that jesus is an "ass" for doing this.

I must go out for a bit. I will be back later.

Half-Life

Well If god knows all, he can not have rage because rage is a human emotion that humans have because we are not "perfect beings."

A perfect being has no reason or desire to have a fit of rage. By definition, a perfect being lacks nothing so it can't be mad or upset, because getting mad, upset, etc implies imperfection.

Half-Life

here is a conversation I had today with a co-worker who was shocked by my deconversion:

Me: Did Jesus sin?

Him: Of course not he was God.

Me: But if Jesus was man, and all men sin, wouldn't this mean jesus could sin?

Him: of course not because he's God too! He can't sin.

Me: Well, did he feel pain on the cross when he was crucified since he's God?

Him: of course he felt pain! He was a man too!

Brilliant!

lumax

Here's my interpretation, as one brought up RC but no longer a believer.
1. Concerning the money changers in the temple. He was the fallible human incarnation of an infallible God. So perhaps it was more a case of human emotion(anger) getting the better of him.

2. As far as the donkey is concerned the Bible answers the question:

Quote:

The Master has need of it and will send it back here at once.

your reply

Quote:

Does this make Jesus a thief?

Technically no. He received stolen goods but the Apostles were guilty of theft.

Quote:

I know many people might say, "Just because it's not written down doesn't mean they didn't return it!" If this is true, why did the all-knowing God mention he was going to return it? The idea that he somehow "forgot" to mention returning the donkey in his "infallible word" seems ridiculous.

It is inferred because telling the story of the return of the donkey is basically useless. To borrow a term from Hitchcock the donkey is a "MacGuffin". Its only purpose is to further the story that becomes Palm Sunday, otherwise it is unimportant.

kiwimac

The reason for the Temple incident is as follows:

When the Temple was built a court was set aside for the Gentiles to come into to worship Yahweh.

The Jewish Temple authorities, over a period of some time, took that area and put it in use for the moneychangers and animal sellers.

This meant the Gentiles could no longer worship there as their mere presence was held to deconsecrate the animals and temple coinage.

Jesus act was thus a political one. He was reminding those authorities that the Temple was built for the worship of God even by the gentiles they so despised.

Jayrok

It's simple... the reason for Jesus running out the money changers from the temple and procuring the colt/donkey is because these elements of the gospel are taken from the old testament. If you sat with pen and paper with the aim of constructing a story of a person (who may or may not be historical, it doesn't matter for your purposes), and this person was to be the personification of Israel of the OT scriptures, you would include elements of the OT into his story. Elements like cursing a fig tree that produces no fruit, wandering in the desert for 40 years (or days in Jesus' case), Riding as a king on the foal of a donkey, etc.. Symbolism in scripture brought to life in a story.

Two interesting things about both the Temple incident and the donkey is how different gospel authors interpreted them. For example, the author of the gospel of John has Jesus "clear" the Temple early in his ministry, well before his "triumphant entry into Jerusalem", while Matthew has Jesus "clear" the Temple after his triumphant final entry at the end of his ministry. I actually had someone on another board tell me Jesus cleansed the Temple twice in his career.

With the donkey, Matthew has Jesus sit on a donkey and its colt. Jesus instructs his boys to bring the donkey and her colt... Matthew 21:6-7 -- 6The disciples went and did as Jesus had instructed them. 7They brought the donkey and the colt, placed their cloaks on them, and Jesus sat on them.

It's funny to imagine Jesus riding into town straddling two donkeys... but Matthew was big on trying to fulfill prophecy.

stuart shepherd

When Jesus knocked over the tables of the money changers the Donkeys picked up some loose change and caught a cab back home.

Donkeys were very smart in Bible times...they could talk.

Stuart Shepherd

ICinsideU

I just finished replying to your post on Acts, and as I was reading the first post on this thread and started to wonder about your faith. I noticed that your beliefs are now blank (which I'm pretty sure is a change from a couple of weeks ago). So have you deconverted?