gnosis92

MJ = mythical Jesus advocates

The NT and Josepheus state he had "disciples" yet we have no surviving written records of either John the Baptist nor any of his disciples. AFAIK, John the Baptist appears to also be silent in secular history. Personally I do not give much credence to the argument from silence when we consider that probably at best only 10% of antiquity was literate, that documents were copied by hand and was very expensive, that documents that were not actively copied by hand were rapidly destroyed through use, that it was a mostly oral culture as few were literate, that we have only a small sample of all the documents that were in existence, that many things in oral culture was never written down, and that many things in antiquity were only singly attested, etc.,

One claim for the historicity of Jesus is that it seems unlikely given what we know about Judaism, that Jews would follow a mythical non-historical messiah.

Besides Jesus, who else on this list would you regard as mythical? If you regard these messiahs as all historical, what does that say about Jewish beliefs about messiah, and the background historical probability of mythical Jesus theory to be correct?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah_claimants

*The Samaritan Prophet
*Judas the Galilean
* Judas son of Hezekiah (Ezekias) (c. 4 BCE)
* Simon (c. 4 BCE)
* Athronges (c. 4-2? BCE)
* Jesus of Nazareth (c. 33 CE)
* Theudas (44-46) in the Roman province of Judea
* Menahem ben Judah partook in a revolt against Agrippa II in Judea
* Simon bar Kokhba (died c. 135), defeated in the Second Jewish-Roman War
* Moses of Crete (5th century)
* Isḥaḳ ben Ya'ḳub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani of Ispahan lived in Persia during the reign of the Umayyad Caliph 'Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan (684-705).
* Yudghan, lived and taught in Persia in the early eighth century disciple of Isḥaḳ ben Ya'ḳub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani of Ispahan
* Serene (Sherini, Sheria, Serenus, Zonoria, Saüra) (c. 720)
* David Alroy or Alrui (c. 1160)
* Abraham Abulafia (b. 1240)
* Nissim ben Abraham (c. 1295) active in Avila.
* Moses Botarel of Cisneros (c. 1413)
* Asher Lemmlein (1502) a German near Venice.
* David Reubeni (early sixteenth century).
* Solomon Molcho (early sixteenth century).
* Hayim Vital (1542-1620)
* Sabbatai Zevi (alternative spellings: Shabbetai, Sabbetai, Shabbesai; Tvi, Tzvi) (1626-1676)
* Barukhia Russo (Osman Baba), succesor of Sabbatai Zevi.
* Miguel (Abraham) Cardoso (b. 1630)
* Mordecai Mokiakh ("the Rebuker") of Eisenstadt (active 1678-1683)
* Jacob Querido (d. 1690), said to be the reincarnation of Shabbetai Zevi.
* Löbele Prossnitz (Joseph ben Jacob), early eighteenth century
* Jacob Joseph Frank (1726-1791), founder of the Frankist movement.
* Shukr Kuhayl I, 19th-century Yemenite pseudo-messiah
* Judah ben Shalom (Shukr Kuhayl II), 19th-century Yemenite pseudo-messiah

spin

You haven't read TFA°. JtB has been discussed. Some think he didn't exist, but I think Josephus on JtB reflects an independent tradition that doesn't accord with christianity's JtB, so he is a probable.


spin

(° The F*cking Archives)

Chris Weimer

He asked quite a bit more than just JtB.

spin

Feel free to respond to the rest!


spin

Chris Weimer

I'm neither a Jesus Mythicist, nor a "Jesus Agnostic". The post is not aimed at me in any way...but it is at you. So...have fun.

spin

I've answered all I needed to respond to. I have little interest in messiahs outside the first century and then there is so little information about those that are. If you want to mind other people's business, you may as well go the whole hog and respond for them as well, but don't expect me to stir interest. :huh:


spin

Gregg

John the Baptist might have been historical or he might have been a figure invented to represent prophets/baptizers in general and contrast the earthly baptism with the spiritual baptism which comes through Christ. Here's a something to ponder: If Josephus' references to Jesus are discounted as later interpolations but his reference to JtB is regarded as genuine, then we actually have more independent contemporary corroboration of John's existence than that of Jesus. This is odd since Jesus apparently had many more followers and made a much bigger impact during his life and after than JtB.

So, Christians didn't manage to save a single thing that talked about Jesus' earthly life. Or perhaps all this information was deemed not important enough to be written down, and was passed along orally (an oral tradition never referred to in the epistles) until 50 years or so later when "Mark" finally put some of the oral tradition on paper (oh, and let's not forget the oral tradition was apparently broken up, with Jesus' sayings apparently preserved and transmitted by one community, his life and deeds preserved and transmitted by another community, while yet other communities wrote letters in which they never referred either to Jesus' sayings or deeds). Then, after Mark is written, Christians suddenly find the wherewithal not only to copy and preserve it, but to write and copy many other versions of it.

And clearly most Jews did not. Anyway, Jesus was regarded as far more than the typical Jewish messiah.

I'm not really sure what your point is here. Were any of the people on this list regarded as the pre-existent Son of God, the divine Logos through which all things were made, through whose suffering, death, and resurrection all creation was reconciled to God? Who freed the righteous from Sheol and re-ascended into heaven, putting the demonic powers and principalities under his feet? Who would come on the clouds to destroy kingdoms and deal divine judgment at the end of time? Did any of these people have followers and churches throughout the Roman empire within a decade or two of their deaths? How many of these people are still worshiped today?

And for that matter, getting back to the subject of your post, JtB did not have churches and worshipers all over the Empire either. The reason JMers wonder why we don't have more references to Jesus' earthly existence and more independent corroboration of his existence in the first place is the impact he made. If he received even less notice than John, than why was he not only much better known, but also worshiped by many Jews and Gentiles alike?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah_claimants

*The Samaritan Prophet
*Judas the Galilean
* Judas son of Hezekiah (Ezekias) (c. 4 BCE)
* Simon (c. 4 BCE)
* Athronges (c. 4-2? BCE)
* Jesus of Nazareth (c. 33 CE)
* Theudas (44-46) in the Roman province of Judea
* Menahem ben Judah partook in a revolt against Agrippa II in Judea
* Simon bar Kokhba (died c. 135), defeated in the Second Jewish-Roman War
* Moses of Crete (5th century)
* Isḥaḳ ben Ya'ḳub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani of Ispahan lived in Persia during the reign of the Umayyad Caliph 'Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan (684-705).
* Yudghan, lived and taught in Persia in the early eighth century disciple of Isḥaḳ ben Ya'ḳub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani of Ispahan
* Serene (Sherini, Sheria, Serenus, Zonoria, Saüra) (c. 720)
* David Alroy or Alrui (c. 1160)
* Abraham Abulafia (b. 1240)
* Nissim ben Abraham (c. 1295) active in Avila.
* Moses Botarel of Cisneros (c. 1413)
* Asher Lemmlein (1502) a German near Venice.
* David Reubeni (early sixteenth century).
* Solomon Molcho (early sixteenth century).
* Hayim Vital (1542-1620)
* Sabbatai Zevi (alternative spellings: Shabbetai, Sabbetai, Shabbesai; Tvi, Tzvi) (1626-1676)
* Barukhia Russo (Osman Baba), succesor of Sabbatai Zevi.
* Miguel (Abraham) Cardoso (b. 1630)
* Mordecai Mokiakh ("the Rebuker") of Eisenstadt (active 1678-1683)
* Jacob Querido (d. 1690), said to be the reincarnation of Shabbetai Zevi.
* Löbele Prossnitz (Joseph ben Jacob), early eighteenth century
* Jacob Joseph Frank (1726-1791), founder of the Frankist movement.
* Shukr Kuhayl I, 19th-century Yemenite pseudo-messiah
* Judah ben Shalom (Shukr Kuhayl II), 19th-century Yemenite pseudo-messiah[/QUOTE]

Malachi151

The only ones of any interest on that list are Simon Magnus and John the Baptist.

I tend to think that Simon Magnus was mythical and that John the Baptist was probably a real person, but it would be interesting to know more about these two as it could help establish things about the existence of Jesus.

For example, if John the Baptist didn't really exist then that would totally undercut the two meager mentions of Jesus was Josephus, such that even if they weren't interpolations they would be useless for historicity if he also wrote things about a John the Baptist who wasn't real as well.

Unfortunately we probably won't ever be able to figure these things out.

aa5874

Isn't Josephus an extra-biblical source? If Josephus mentioned activities of John the Baptist, then the historicity of JtB is likely in the 1st century.

However, the reason for the execution of John the Baptist, as written by Josephus in Antiquities of the Jews XVIII 5:2, was because Herod was afraid of an insurrection by the followers of John. That explanation appears to me to be far more plausible than the reason given in Matthew 14:1-13, and in any event, Josephus' reason contradicts the one in the NT.

Again, to the detriment of the historicists, Josephus did not link the preachings or teachings of JtB to any character named Jesus the Christ, although the baptism of Jesus the Christ by John the baptist was claimed to be his prophectic role, and accorrding to the NT, JtB did make his followers aware and emphasied this role to his followers.

The NT placed Jesus in the hands of John the Baptist, Josephus did not account for such event.


You must remember that all biblical accounts of Jesus Christ claimed he was extremely popular, known throught the region and abroad. I would expect some literate persons, like Josephus, Philo or some other person Jew or non-Jew to have written about the phenomena, in or out of the region, in the 1st century.

I think your statement augments non-historicity, Judaism rejects the Christian messiah.

I think you should concentrate on Jesus for now, because maybe everyone on your list will not be proven to be historical, they were just accepted to be so.

gnosis92

I believe these are also first century Jewish messiahs

*The Samaritan Prophet
*Judas the Galilean
* Judas son of Hezekiah (Ezekias) (c. 4 BCE)
* Simon (c. 4 BCE)
* Athronges (c. 4-2? BCE)
* Jesus of Nazareth (c. 33 CE)
* Theudas (44-46) in the Roman province of Judea
* Menahem ben Judah partook in a revolt against Agrippa II in Judea