Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 07-18-2012, 02:58 PM

Why am I arguing with someone who can't read the Yosippon and who isn't even familiar with the Latin text of Hegesippus. Spend a day and read this and then continue this silly exercise. You just don't know enough to be arguing here:

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/he..._00_eintro.htm

stephan huller · 07-18-2012, 03:01 PM

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Did you know Hegesippus is actually a perfectly well attested, albeit obscure classical Greek name?

But the author of the Outlines was Jewish. The name is Joseph. No one doubts this. Please read more about this subject before you continue to attack me for gaps in your own knowledge. It is fair to attack an unproven position. Where something is generally acknowledged, you have to defend your innovations - in this case your idea that Hegesippus was a Jew carrying around a classical Greek name.

stephan huller · 07-18-2012, 03:04 PM

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how much more expansive can it be?

Read the fucking information in the links I provide you. I can't help be responsible for your ignorance. If I am not mistaken, you have never read the Slavonic, Hebrew or Latin material even where translated into English. As such you possess a misguided understanding of the works of 'Josephus' as monolithic texts that have been preserved in a single form which 'proves' the certainty of various things. Your ignorance is making you look very foolish. I am a very patient man. I can keep at this forever as I have been there. Go through the steps to knowledge and you will suddenly see your certainty disappear. We all see the same sun in the sky.

stephan huller · 07-18-2012, 03:07 PM

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If wiki and the Jewish Encyclopedia are accurate

Some wonderful sources. A posting board for unpaid interns and a century's old encyclopedia. Please read the original material yourself. You seem to be in the possession of a computer. Why not do a Google Books search for the terms 'Josephus' and 'Hegesippus.'

Duke Leto · 07-18-2012, 03:08 PM

You've once again ignored my request for a citation on the "Christian themes" in the received text of Josephus. I am going to have to come to the conclusion that the authority is Stephan Huller. And Stephan Huller has some credibility problems.

The set of posts above ignored my request for a reason why Hegesippus quoting Josephus for his chronology and being quoted/misattributed to Josephus by Clement and your other source isn't a plausible explanation. "Because it ruins my theory!" won't cut it.

Nobody else is bothering to entertain you're ideas, and I'm just bored. You might as well humor me.

stephan huller · 07-18-2012, 03:08 PM

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If he's just reporting stories someone else told him than how did such a complex history of a fictitious daughter of Agrippa get invented?

Have you read the story about the Jewish transvetites who while holding Jerusalem hostage paraded about the city wearing make up and dresses? Where did that story come from? Probably the same place.

stephan huller · 07-18-2012, 03:14 PM

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You've once again ignored my request for a citation on the "Christian themes" in the received text of Josephus.

You are aware of the reference to:

1. the Testimonium Flavianum which presupposes that Josephus was taken with Jesus.
2. the reference to his brother Jacob which (a) implies that Jesus was a human being and had an influential family.
3. the reference to Simon Magus in reference to Drusilla.

These are all found in the Greek text of Josephus. If you go to the Slavonic version of the same material there are eight specifically Christian references and many more curious additions which are less easy to explain. The Yosippon incorporates references which make Agrippa the messiah in keeping with the tradition with Jewish understanding which is the basis to my book.

Please look Leemings English translation in Google books.

stephan huller · 07-18-2012, 03:15 PM

Some information on the Slavonic text from Roger Pearse:

http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/josephus/slavonic.htm

stephan huller · 07-18-2012, 03:16 PM

Slavonic version of Josephus, Jewish War 2.9.3b-f §174 (English translation only; this passage is sometimes called the Testimonium Slavianum):

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At that time there appeared a man, if it is proper to call him a man, whose nature and form were human but whose appearance was more than human and whose deeds were divine. And he worked wonderful and powerful miracles. Therefore it is impossible for me to call him a man. Then again, in view of his common nature, I shall not call him an angel [either].

And everything, whatever he did, he did by some unseen power, by word and command. Some said of him: Our first lawgiver has risen from the dead and has been demonstrating many cures and skills. Others thought that he was sent from God. But he was in much opposed to the law and did not observe the sabbath according to the ancestral customs, yet did nothing dirty, unclean, nor with use of hands, but worked everything by word only. And many of the people followed and listened to his teachings.

And many souls were aroused, thinking that by him the Jewish tribes would free themselves from the hands of the Romans. But it was his habit rather to remain in front of the city on the Mount of Olives; and there he also [freely] gave cures to people. And there 150 servants and a multitude of people joined him, seeing his power, how by word he did everything he wished. They bade him enter the city, kill the Roman troops and Pilate, and reign over these. But he did not care [to do so].

Later, when news of this came to the Jewish leaders, they assembled to the chief priests and said: We are powerless and [too] weak to oppose the Romans, like a slackened bow. Let us go and inform Pilate what we have heard, and we shall be free of anxiety; if at some time he shall hear [of this] from others, we shall be deprived of property, ourselves slaughtered, and [our] children exiled. And they went and informed Pilate. And he sent and killed many of the people and brought in that wonderworker. After inquiring about him Pilate understood that he was a doer of good, not of evil, [and] not a rebel, nor one desirous of kingship; and he released him. For he had cured his wife, who was dying.

And he went to the usual places and performed his usual deeds. And again, as more people gathered around him, he became renowned for his works more than all [others]. Again the lawyers were struck with envy against him. And they gave 30 talents to Pilate that they should kill him. And he took [it] and gave them liberty to carry out their wishes themselves. And they sought out a suitable time to kill him. For they had given Pilate 30 talents earlier, that he should give Jesus up to them. And they crucified him against the ancestral law, and they greatly reviled him.

This passage reflects the beginning and middle portions of the Testimonium; the next passage reflects the end. Slavonic version of Josephus, Jewish War 2.11.6c-d §220 (English translation only):

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At this time there appeared many servants of the previously described wonderworker, telling the people about their master, that he was alive although he had died. And [they said]: He will free you from servitude. And many of the people listened to them and paid attention to their instructions, not because of their renown. For the apostles were from the lowly [folk]; for some were sailmakers, some were sandalmakers, some were manual workers, others fishermen. But they performed wonderful signs, in truth what[ever] they willed.

But the grateful governors, seeing the subversion of the people, planned with the scribes to take them and destroy them, lest a small [thing] be not small when in its fullness it becomes great. But they were ashamed and terrified by the signs and said: Such great wonders do not happen by magic; if they do not come by the forethought of God, they will be soon unmasked. And they gave them authority to go about freely. Later, being pestered by them, they released them, some to Caesar, some to Antioch, others in distant lands, for an investigation of the matter.

Slavonic version of Josephus, Jewish War 5.5.2 §195 (English translation only):

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And above these inscriptions a fourth inscription hung, in those letters,* declaring Jesus, [a] king who had not reigned, crucified by [the] Jews, because he foretold the destruction of the city and the devastation of the temple.

* Id est, Greek, Roman, and Jewish letters.

Slavonic version of Josephus, Jewish War 5.5.4a-d §214 (English translation only):

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Until this generation this veil was intact, for the people were pious. But now it was pitiful to look at it, for it had been suddenly rent from top to bottom when [the] benefactor, man and by his actions not man, was for reward handed over to be killed.

And they tell of many other signs that happened then; they said that after his killing and burial he was not found in the tomb. For some claimed he had risen, but others that he was stolen away by his friends.

I do not know who speaks more correctly. For a dead man cannot rise by himself unless aided by the prayer of another righteous man. Except he be an angel or one of the heavenly powers, or God himself appear as man and do what he wants, and go among people, and fall and lie and rise as is his will.

And others said that it could not be possible to steal him away; for they posted guards around his tomb, one thousand Romans and one thousand Jews. Such is what is said about this veil and as to the reason for it being torn.

Slavonic version of Josephus, Jewish War 6.5.3 §312-313 (English translation only):

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But they were impelled to [make] war by an ambiguous prediction found in the sacred books, saying that in those times someone from the Judean land would be reigning over the whole world. For this there are various explanations.

For some thought it [meant] Herod, others the crucified miracle-worker Jesus, others Vespasian.

stephan huller · 07-18-2012, 03:19 PM

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Nobody else is bothering to entertain you're ideas, and I'm just bored.

While it is true my wife has no time for my ideas, my blog really does get over 250 page views a day. Of course it's not like I am get paid for any of this.

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07-18-2012, 02:58 PM	#201
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Why am I arguing with someone who can't read the Yosippon and who isn't even familiar with the Latin text of Hegesippus. Spend a day and read this and then continue this silly exercise. You just don't know enough to be arguing here: http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/he..._00_eintro.htm

07-18-2012, 03:08 PM	#205
Duke Leto Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 3,387	You've once again ignored my request for a citation on the "Christian themes" in the received text of Josephus. I am going to have to come to the conclusion that the authority is Stephan Huller. And Stephan Huller has some credibility problems. The set of posts above ignored my request for a reason why Hegesippus quoting Josephus for his chronology and being quoted/misattributed to Josephus by Clement and your other source isn't a plausible explanation. "Because it ruins my theory!" won't cut it. Nobody else is bothering to entertain you're ideas, and I'm just bored. You might as well humor me.

07-18-2012, 03:15 PM	#208
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Some information on the Slavonic text from Roger Pearse: http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/josephus/slavonic.htm

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