Thomas II

It was figurative speech!! BASED on the literary characters, those two did not see eye to eye...No pun intended since Yahweh in all those years only showed him his back...(his occult arse)

hatsoff

I'm with you so far.

The Bible is very clear that man is not saved by works, but by faith alone. Solus christus, sola gratia, sola fide. Paul explains this very clearly in his Epistle to the Ephesians, chapter 2:
So you see that while God certainly likes us to obey his commandments, it is by faith alone that we are saved.

He says the same in Romans, chapter 11:
Jesus confirms this, in the sixth chapter of John's Gospel:
But wait! What about all those passages you quoted in your OP? Don't they say the exact opposite? Not at all! Consider...

Matthew 7:
How is it that people can drive out demons and prophesy in the name of Jesus, but not believe? It's actually very common. The obvious examples are David Koresh and Jim Jones, who abused Christianity to advance their own agendas. This portion of Matthew is all about false prophets like those, who preach in the name of Christ but do not believe in their heart.

Matthew 19:
As you can see, the rich man believed he had already earned his way into Heaven. But Jesus made the point that no man can ever work his way to Heaven. That is the work of God, who sent his only Son to save men from their punishments.

Matthew 22:
This, of course, deals with Jewish Law--the Old Covenant. But God has made a New Covenant through Christ so that we are free from the Law.

So you see that obedience is not required for a man to enter Heaven. For man can never earn his way to Heaven, but God must have mercy. And God does have mercy! He sent his Son to die and be raised, so that whoever believes in Him will live forever.

Johnny Skeptic

You are mistaken. Initial salvation is no guarantee that a person will go to heaven. Matthew 7:21-23 say “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.� We know that the people that Jesus was talking about were Christians because they we able to cast out devils, and Mark 3:23 says “And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?,� meaning “Satan cannot cast out devils, only God can cast out devils.� If non-Christians could actually as Matthew 7:21-23 say prophesy in the name of Jesus, cast out devils, and do wonderful works in the name of Jesus, it would be impossible for Christians to distinguish Christians from non-Christians.

Matthew 19:17 says “And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.� The verse can be paraphrased “SUBSEQUENT to initial salvation, IF thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.� If keeping the commandments was not required, the word “if� would not have appeared in the verse. Are you not aware the that the word “if� is conditional?

2 Peter 1:3-10 say “According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.�

The verses clearly require that subsequent to initial salvation, Christians must be diligent, virtuous, obtain knowledge, be temperant, be patient, and be godly in order to make their calling and election sure. So, obtaining salvation and is an ONGOING process, not just an INITIAL process. A deliberate lack of commitment on the part of Christians would make a mockery out of God’s commandments and permit nominal commitments to God. The Bible is serious business. Matthew 7:13-14 say “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.�

In short, you are completely mistaken about what a person must do in order to go to heaven.

hatsoff

There is no discussion of "initial salvation" or any similar concept in the Bible. You seem to have invented the term to explain an apparent contradiction. The thing is, there is no such contradiction; not to point fingers, but you've misinterpreted the text.

Matthew 7 does not describe non-Christians who cast out demons and prophesy, only those who claim such feats.

You keep ignoring the end of that narrative; it's not an isolated verse. As I explained above, Jesus was making a point: Man cannot earn his way to Heaven by obeying God.

Peter is not talking about your "initial salvation," but only that we should strive to do good works. Verse 10 warns us that without good works, our faith might wither and die.

It may also be referring to a sort of afterlife hierarchy. Consider 1 Corinthians 3:
In any case, the 1 Peter reference makes no mention of "initial Salvation," nor does it tell us that we must do good works to enter Heaven.

Indeed. That's why God tells us he wants us to love and do good. However, faith alone is necessary for Salvation.

This verse mentions neither obedience nor faith.

I'm sorry, but I must persist in my disagreement.

Johnny Skeptic

It is most certainly not an isolated verse. The word "if" is conditional, and the conditions are keeping the commandments. Matthew 22:35-40 say "Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." The word "all" indicates a total commitment. Anything less would make a mockery out of Jesus' instructions.

Well of course he isn't. I said "The verses clearly require that subsequent to initial salvation, Christians must be diligent, virtuous, obtain knowledge, be temperant, be patient, and be godly in order to make their calling and election sure. So, obtaining salvation and is an ONGOING process, not just an INITIAL process."

You are mistaken. Peter said that subsequent to initial salvation, Christians must be diligent, virtuous, obtain knowledge, and be temperant, patient, and godly in order to make their calling and election sure, in other words, to make their salvation sure. Peter was speaking of obtaining salvation as an ongoing process, not just an initial process.

Consider the following Scriptures:

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Dead faith gets Christians to heaven? No way.

hatsoff

At the conclusion of the narrative, the Apostles are confused, because they think, like you, that Jesus meant one must obey God completely to be saved. But Jesus tells them that complete obedience is the only way for man to get himself to Heaven. But God can bring a disobedient man into Heaven. "With God, all things are possible."

But that's the Law, which has since been fulfilled. Now we are under the New Covenant. We are saved by grace, apart from observing the Law.

Johnny Skeptic

The word "if" is conditional. That is all that there is to it.

You are mistaken. Salvation is initially by grace, but subsequent to initial salvation, Christians must fulfill certain requirements in order to go to heaven. The following is from my previous post:

hatsoff

You can't pick and choose which verses you'll read and which you'll ignore, or else you'll find yourself reaching all the wrong conclusions.

Take the seventh chapter of 1 Corinthians, for example. Paul begins by saying, "it is good for a man not to marry." Taken out of context, this could cause quite a stir, wouldn't you say? But read on:
This is a wonderful example of how context is everything. It is the same with Matthew 19. Notice what the man questioning Jesus says: "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" (emphasis added). For a man to earn his way to Heaven, he must keep God's Law. The Apostles, like you, failed to understand that distinction, and so they ask Him, "Who then can be saved?" Does Jesus say, "those who obey God?" Not at all! Rather, he says this: "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." It is God who saves us. We do not do anything to obtain it; it is given to us freely. Just like Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."

Without good works, Faith is in danger of withering and dying. However, there is no specific requirement other than faith. Like Jesus said in John 6:29: "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." And Paul, in Romans 11:6: "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace."

The Bible is very, very clear. Faith alone is required to reap the benefits of God's grace.

Johnny Skeptic

Yes, the Bible is very, very clear, but you obviously do not understand it. The following is from one of my previous posts:

Peter was quite clear. He said “in order to make their calling and election sure,� by implication “subsequent to initial salvation, there are further requirements.� If calling and election, meaning initial salvation, were sure, Peter most certainly would not have said to make something sure that was already sure.

Matthew 7:21-23 say “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.� You said that the texts do not refer to real Christians, but you cannot prove that. Mark 3:22-23 say “And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?� Jesus clearly indicated that non-Christians cannot cast out devils. Mark 16:17 confirms this with “And these signs shall follow them that believe; [by implication “only� them that believe] In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues.�

Hebrews 6:4-6 say “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.� The verses indicate that Christians can lose their salvation. Non-Christians most certainly cannot be enlightened, taste of the heavenly gift, and partake of the Holy Ghost. The words “to renew them again unto repentance� clearly speak of obtaining and losing salvation.









Yes, the Bible is very, very clear, but you obviously do not understand it. The following is from one of my previous posts:

Peter was quite clear. He said “in order to make their calling and election sure,� by implication “subsequent to initial salvation, there are further requirements.� If calling and election, meaning initial salvation, were sure, Peter most certainly would not have said to make something sure that was already sure.

Matthew 7:21-23 say “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.� You said that the texts do not refer to real Christians, but you cannot prove that. Mark 3:22-23 say “And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?� Jesus clearly indicated that non-Christians cannot cast out devils. Mark 16:17 confirms this with “And these signs shall follow them that believe; [by implication “only� them that believe] In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues.�

Hebrews 6:4-6 say “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.� The verses indicate that Christians can lose their salvation. Non-Christians most certainly cannot be enlightened, taste of the heavenly gift, and partake of the Holy Ghost. The words “to renew them again unto repentance� clearly speak of obtaining and losing salvation.

hatsoff

That passage does not state that anyone's "calling and election" can be nullified by a lack of good works. Good works are a personal assurance of that calling; for "anyone who does what is good is from God" (3 John 1:11). So we know that if we do good works, they are a testament to our impending Salvation. That doesn't mean without enough good works we are damned. All dogs are mammals, but not all mammals are dogs.

Well, to be more specific, it may also refer to former Christians who fell away. And no, I can't prove my own interpretation, but any other defies Scripture.

Sure, believers can fall away. I wouldn't claim otherwise. However, they lose that salvation because they lose faith. Good works have nothing directly to do with that.