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08-05-2008, 09:22 AM | #1 |
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Are these the same people?
Mark 6.3:
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Jude and Simon? Are not his sisters here with us?Mark 15.40: There were also some women looking on from a distance, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the lesser and Joses, and Salome.Mark 15.47: Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses were looking on to see where he was laid.Mark 16.1 (see Luke 24.10): When the sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might come and anoint him.Jude [1.]1: Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ and brother of James, to those who are the called, beloved in God the father, and kept for Jesus Christ.Ben. |
08-05-2008, 10:21 AM | #2 | |
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And it would appear the author of gMark was successful, he seemed to have gotten the authors of Matthew and Luke to invent birth stories about Mary being the mother of Jesus with a brother James. Mary and James are introduced for the first time in gMark in the form of what can be called a "leading question." Is this not the son of Mary......the brother of James...? At the place of crucifixion, the author again did not say Mary the mother of Jesus whose brother was Joses, he OMITTED the words mother of Jesus. Again, at the tomb, the words mother of Jesus are not to be found, it is now Mary, the mother of James. So, in the entire Gospel of Mark, there is only one leading question asking if Mary is the mother and James is the brother of Jesus and the author never really answered his own question when he had two opportunities to do so. Jesus is being crucified and instead of the author clearly saying that Mary the mother of Jesus was present, he said Mary the mother of Joses looked on. Jesus is dead and buried and instead of the author saying clearly that Mary the mother of Jesus went to see his body, the author wrote Mary the mother of James went to visit the body of Jesus. This appears to be highly unusual, the author never explicitly and directly claimed Mary was the mother of Jesus. The author of Mark appear to have no idea about the famiily of Jesus and expected the readers to use their imagination. The authors of Matthew and Luke appear to have used their imagination. Based, on Mark, then, the characters Mary, James and Jesus are unknown by the author. |
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08-05-2008, 10:35 AM | #3 |
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Why would Jude identify himself as a brother of James and a servant of Jesus Christ if he were a literal brother of Jesus Christ?
It seems to me that this is all speculation. In the absense of extra-Biblical evidence, how could you know if these names are meant to refer to the same people or not? Are all of the Marys the same person? All of the James? (the brother and the disciple?) |
08-05-2008, 10:56 AM | #4 | ||||
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08-05-2008, 11:04 AM | #5 | |
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By speculation, I mean that there is no evidence. Your imagination is filling in the details.
I don't understand this: Quote:
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08-05-2008, 11:07 AM | #6 | ||||
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08-05-2008, 11:17 AM | #7 |
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I think that the idea that James the pillar of the Jerusalem church is James the brother of Jesus has the same evidence behind it as the idea that Mary Magdalene was Jesus' wife. I don't see enough substance to even discuss this.
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08-05-2008, 11:26 AM | #8 | ||||
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Here for instance, in the remarks of C. Bigg, A critical and exegetical commentary on the Epistles of St. Peter and St. Jude (Edinburgh: T&T Clark International. 1901) 323, is not only an answer to your question, but a notation that it is not something new: And here -- in the comments of R. Bauckham on Jude 1:1 from his Word commentary on 1 & 2 Peter & Jude -- you'll see that the question certainly hasn't been neglected in NT studies. Quote:
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08-05-2008, 11:28 AM | #9 | |
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(Is it possible you are reading my comments on that other thread into this thread? The two are only tangentially related.) What I want to know is this: Does Mark have the mother of Jesus witnessing the crucifixion? (Does Mary the mother of the four named sons in Mark 6.3 match the Mary who is the mother of James and Joses in chapters 15 and 16?) Also, what is the relationship (if any) between the James and Jude from Mark 6.3 and the James and Jude from Jude [1.]1? I apologize if this thread does not have enough substance for you; it was a genuine question, and I genuinely wanted possible answers. Ben. |
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08-05-2008, 11:53 AM | #10 | ||
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http://www.tertullian.org/fathers2/A...#P9993_2824767 Andrew Criddle |
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