Freethought & Rationalism Archive

skepticdude · 11-20-2009, 01:29 PM

The Book of Acts says the betrayal of Judas and it's consequences were predicted in the Old Testament:

Quote:

Acts 1:16-20
16 "Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.
17 "For he was counted among us, and received his portion in this ministry." 18 (Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out.
19 And it became known to all who were living in Jerusalem; so that in their own language that field was called Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)
20 "For it is written in the book of Psalms, 'Let his homestead be made desolate, And let no man dwell in it'; and, 'His office let another man take.'

Quote:

Acts 2:22-23
22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--
23 this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

Quote:

Acts 4:27-28
27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
28 to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur.

Certain gospel texts also speak about the necessity of Judas betraying Jesus, and portray it as a predestined event:

Quote:

John 6:70-71
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"
71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

Quote:

Matthew 26:50-54
50 And Jesus said to him, "Friend, do what you have come for." Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and seized Him.
51 And behold, one of those who were with Jesus reached and drew out his sword, and struck the slave of the high priest, and cut off his ear.
52 Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword.
53 "Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
54 "How then shall the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen this way?"

Quote:

Matthew 26:23-25
23 And He answered and said, "He who dipped his hand with Me in the bowl is the one who will betray Me.
24 "The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."
25 And Judas, who was betraying Him, answered and said, "Surely it is not I, Rabbi?" He said to him, "You have said it yourself."

Quote:

Luke 22:3-4
3 And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot, belonging to the number of the twelve.
4 And he went away and discussed with the chief priests and officers how he might betray Him to them.

Quote:

John 13:1-2
1 Now before the Feast of the Passover, Jesus knowing that His hour had come that He should depart out of this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end.
2 And during supper, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray Him,

Quote:

John 13:26-27
26 Jesus therefore answered, "That is the one for whom I shall dip the morsel and give it to him." So when He had dipped the morsel, He took and gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot.
27 And after the morsel, Satan then entered into him. Jesus therefore said to him, "What you do, do quickly."

===========================================

This one is for the non-Calvinist Christians:

If the Old Testament texts that speak of Jesus' betrayal, were identifying specifically Judas as the culprit, then did Judas have sufficient freewill to deviate from those predictions (by refusing to betray Jesus)? There are only two options:

1 - Judas had the freewill ability to avoid his predicted actions. Had he done so, this would have proven that the bible texts concerned constituted false prophecy. The texts said he would, but he didn't, so the texts turned out to be wrong.

2 - Judas had the freewill ability to avoid his predicted actions. Had he done so, the apostles and New Testament authors, like good businessmen, would have avoided mentioning any specific betrayal text, which means we today would never know that there were biblical texts making false predictions about Judas.

3 - Judas did not have the freewill ability to avoid making his predicted choices. God's knowledge of the future is exhaustive, knowing not just the possibilities but what will actually happen.
-----------------------

I submit that the question of Judas's freewill forces non-Calvinist Christians to one of two conclusions which conflict with their classical theistic view: You can use your freewill to surprise God (I.e., God can be wrong about the future), or, you are not responsible for your choices, because it is impossible for a person to deviate from making choices which they are infallibly foreknown to make. Either choice appears to contradict the biblical teaching that God knows the future exhaustively, or the bible teaching that people have freewill.

In other words, no matter how the non-Calvinist answers the question about Judas' freewill, they will be forced to draw logical conclusions that conflict with other biblical teachings. If any non-Calvinist can show that the "Judas's freewill" question allows drawing a less theologically intrusive conclusion, let's hear it.

Again, this was an argument intended for NON-Calvinists. Calvinists have no problem with God predestining a person to make bad choices, blame them and them alone for those bad choices, then send them to hell even though they could not have chosen better. And Calvinists don't believe in the version of freewill that is used throughout this argument anyway.

David B · 11-20-2009, 01:53 PM

Except perhaps to Calvinists, the Book of Judas makes a lot more sense than the canonical account.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas

A lot more sense than the canonical account does not imply a lot of sense.

David B

OneInFundieville · 11-20-2009, 02:14 PM

Do Sethian Gnostics qualify as non-Calvinist Christians?

David B · 11-20-2009, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneInFundieville

Do Sethian Gnostics qualify as non-Calvinist Christians?

I have no idea

David B

Toto · 11-20-2009, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneInFundieville

Do Sethian Gnostics qualify as non-Calvinist Christians?

Definitely non-Calvinist.

GakuseiDon · 11-20-2009, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skepticdude

You can use your freewill to surprise God (I.e., God can be wrong about the future)...

I don't want to turn this into a "free-will vs foreknowledge" debate, but I've never understood this idea that God has to be 'surprised' in order for us to have free-will. (I've debated it plenty of times elsewhere and won't do so here). Does anyone know where this idea comes from?

Anyway, "Sunday Heroes" has gone into the question of Judas' free-will when betraying Jesus here which is worth a look (goes for 3 min):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9_1RFAcjMU

OneInFundieville · 11-20-2009, 05:06 PM

I'm not convinced all the authors of the canonical texts believed that YHWH is a foreknow-it-all. There's enough tradition around negotiation, repenting/relenting, and changing mind that the foreknow-it-all-ness seems at least as centered in Platonic thought as ancient Mesopotamian Jewish origins.

David B · 11-20-2009, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneInFundieville

I'm not convinced all the authors of the canonical texts believed that YHWH is a foreknow-it-all. There's enough tradition around negotiation, repenting/relenting, and changing mind that the foreknow-it-all-ness seems at least as centered in Platonic thought as ancient Mesopotamian Jewish origins.

I've long reckoned that the foreknow-it-all god comes from Anselm's Ontological argument, which is spurious.

Certainly doesn't come from the OT, where we have Adam hiding from their putative god, and then tpg asking Adam where he is.

Tpg seemed to let the snake have a free run, too, so it doesn't seem like he even knew what was going on at the time, leave alone in the future.

David B

OneInFundieville · 11-20-2009, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneInFundieville

I'm not convinced all the authors of the canonical texts believed that YHWH is a foreknow-it-all. There's enough tradition around negotiation, repenting/relenting, and changing mind that the foreknow-it-all-ness seems at least as centered in Platonic thought as ancient Mesopotamian Jewish origins.

I've long reckoned that the foreknow-it-all god comes from Anselm's Ontological argument, which is spurious.

Certainly doesn't come from the OT, where we have Adam hiding from their putative god, and then tpg asking Adam where he is.

Tpg seemed to let the snake have a free run, too, so it doesn't seem like he even knew what was going on at the time, leave alone in the future.

David B

Exactly. Philosophizing [Calvinist, non-Calivinist or other] half-rational/half-magical systematic theology out of an anthology of spiritual/mythological stories robs them of something if you ask me.

Lugubert · 11-21-2009, 10:04 AM

One of the first cases that made me question my then Christian belief was that I thought that Judas was unfairly criticized. According to Scripture, he had no choice, and he is supposed to be the one that caused Jesus’ death, bringing salvation to believers. He should rather be worshipped as a co-salvator.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

11-20-2009, 01:53 PM	#2
David B Contributor Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Wales Posts: 11,620	Except perhaps to Calvinists, the Book of Judas makes a lot more sense than the canonical account. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas A lot more sense than the canonical account does not imply a lot of sense. David B

11-20-2009, 02:14 PM	#3
OneInFundieville Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Where I go Posts: 2,168	Do Sethian Gnostics qualify as non-Calvinist Christians?

11-20-2009, 05:06 PM	#7
OneInFundieville Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Where I go Posts: 2,168	I'm not convinced all the authors of the canonical texts believed that YHWH is a foreknow-it-all. There's enough tradition around negotiation, repenting/relenting, and changing mind that the foreknow-it-all-ness seems at least as centered in Platonic thought as ancient Mesopotamian Jewish origins.

11-21-2009, 10:04 AM	#10
Lugubert Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Western Sweden Posts: 3,684	One of the first cases that made me question my then Christian belief was that I thought that Judas was unfairly criticized. According to Scripture, he had no choice, and he is supposed to be the one that caused Jesus’ death, bringing salvation to believers. He should rather be worshipped as a co-salvator.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.