spin

No, it's just been straightened, though I take your point that the letter is as you described.

Seeing the unenchanted (© JW) version does help to get a better picture of the issues.

Strange, I see that there is no progressive diminution of the letter. One arrives at the splodge (whatever it is) under YDYH and the letters suddenly become half height (though the second YOD is longer than the downstroke of the DALET). I can't see how that can be a matter of discussion.

While this is to some extent true, it does not explain the reduction in size of YDYH. The letter before it cannot be said to be diminished in size especially when one hasn't ascertained what that letter is. Working on the text we have as an indicator, ie MT, the letter should be a YOD and looks no different from any of the final YODs -- or the longer final WAW, which should not normally be a consideration.

One wouldn't expect a WAW to do so after a BET. Certainly the WAW before the PE in the word before K)RY doesn't do so. Your rule doesn't cover the evidence. Besides, you don't know what deformities of the writing surface there were, so your rule cannot have much value. And further, you seem to be arguing from one letter (whose context is different from all the final YODs, ie the WAW after the TET), which doesn't have a ptrevious letter to impede the downstroke. You are using one letter to argue against three or four. That's not kosher.

Looking at the repertoire of YODs, all final YODs with the exception of that in HQYPWNY -- which is impeded by the NUN --, are as big as the final letter of K)R-. The one WAW you are using YBY+W starts lower than the YOD of BY and it is the same length. You only know it's a WAW for sure because you can consult the MT.

You are not considering the context here. The TAW blocks the downward stroke of each YOD as does the NUN -- the YOD following the NUN has been shortened in the enchanted version to make clear to the reader what letter it is. Nevertheless the three YODs after the TAWs and that in BY are the same size as the WAW in YBY+W. The WAW at the end of YR)W is smaller than any of the final YODs. In fact only the WAW in HQYPWNY is bigger than the final YODs.

You may be, but we are trying to decide how we can identify the letter at the end of K)R- from the letters at the ends of the other words we've been discussing.

The distinction seems quite clear. We have the leftmost stroke of the ALEF continuing under the WAW, which ends clearly above it.

It does not from my view: you can happily follow the stroke of the ALEF concerned and it is separate from the WAW -- assuming the Flint image supplied by Apikorus is accurate.

This doesn't seem to be the case.

I don't see that you have substantial reason to do so. I think you are not representing the letters as they appear in the Flint image.

The ALEF in K)RY is clearly as big as any letter in HQYPWNY, as is the faded KAF.

We seem to be looking at a different photograph. If that is the case and the Flint image posted here is not accurate then you may have more of a case. As it is, I don't think you have any case to distinguish the letter at the end of K)R- from any of the final YODs or WAWs, meaning there is no case for the WAW at the end of K)R-.


spin

Apikorus

Here's a blow-up of column VI, containing parts of Psalm 12:6-9. I've added the Masoretic Text above, in blue. I've also added small white arrows pointing to all the yods and small yellow arrows pointing to all the waws.

The trends in this fragment seem different than those in column IX, which contains our text from Ps 22. Here, the yods often extend to the foot of neighboring characters, as in )$YT, BY$(, YPYX, and YHWH. Note also how the waw at the end of LW extends very low, as does the waw in YTHLKWN. This shakes my confidence in distinguishing K)RW from KRY in col. IX somewhat.

Also note how the he resembles a Greek pi. I think I've mentioned before how in some Greek biblical texts the tetragrammaton is rendered in Hebrew, owing to reverence for the divine name. Proceeding from left to right, a Greek reader who missed the change in script would think that God's name was Pipi.

spin

Kudos for the great photos, Apikorus.


spin

Apikorus

You're welcome. By the way, I emailed to you and Notsri a pdf of Flint's JJS article.

JoeWallack

JW:
Let's try to clear up some confusion here. There are two DJD fragments that contain the offending word:

4Q (DJD 16)

5/6Hev (DJD 38)

Here's what Strawn wrote:

http://www.jstor.org/view/00219231/s...3&config=jstor






JW:
God, if only they had ImageShack in Eusebius' time, eh Pete? Strawn refers to 4Q as "XHev/Se4". 4Q is the earlier find. This is what A saw, or rather couldn't see on Microfiche, PAM 42.190. The General consensus is that the offending word here is illegible. I haven't seen anyone other than Flint identify it as K)RW.

Strawn refers to Flint's earlier book, The Dead Sea Psalms Scrolls and the Book of Psalms, 1997, where Flint identifies 4Q as K)RW:

http://books.google.com/books?id=E9F...LPhONamXXITqKI



It's generally agreed that all that is visible for the offending word of 4Q is the top of the K and R. Considering all of the related problems identified in this Thread such as:

1) Similarity of yods and vavs in general.

2) Extra similarity of final yods.

3) Intra scribal variation for the same letter.

4) Inter scribal variation for the same letter.

5) Variant warping of text due to age.

it is truly a Miracle that Flint was able to ID 4Q as K)RW. Maybe Jerry Vardaman told Flint where to look under the microscope or at least which microscope to use.

So, Notsri, do you still think we should just leave it to Professionals like Flint to just tell us what the reading is? I mean he is the co-director of the Dead Sea Scrolls Institute for Christ's sake. What do you think Jeffrey?



Joseph

TRANSLATOR, n.
One who enables two persons of different languages to understand each other by repeating to each what it would have been to the translator's advantage for the other to have said.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack

JW:
Here's a scan from DJD 38, Plate XXVII Fragment #9 which is the Official photgraph:



JW:
General observations to start with are Yod in this Fragment seems to be either shorter than the adjoining letters or the same length while Vav seems to be either the same length as the adjoining letters or longer. The final letter of the offending word looks to be the same length as the preceding Resh.

I think the starting point would be to develop Statistics for Yods and Vavs for this Fragment as well as the final Yods. An especially good comparison would be other final Yods/Vavs preceded by a Resh.

Presumably all of these Psalms Fragments were part of the same Scroll and therefore had the same Author. So statistics can also be developed from other Fragments but these will not have the same weight since the different scraps have aged differently.



Joseph

TRANSLATOR, n.
One who enables two persons of different languages to understand each other by repeating to each what it would have been to the translator's advantage for the other to have said.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack

JW:
Here's a scan from DJD 38, Plate XXVII Fragment #9 which is the Official photograph, Color Coded:

Yod = Blue

Vav = Red

Offending Letter = Black




JW:
The pattern is pretty much the same as A observed for Fragment #3. Yod is generally the same length as the downstroke for the preceding letter while Vav generally extends down a little further than the downstroke for the preceding letter. Of course this is only one noticable characteristic but appears to be the most remarkable one.



Joseph

TRANSLATOR, n.
One who enables two persons of different languages to understand each other by repeating to each what it would have been to the translator's advantage for the other to have said.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack

JW:
I think a relevant comparison for the offending word would be a clearer picture from the same hand of Yod and Vav next to a Resh since the downstroke of Yods and Vavs seems to normally be related to the downstroke of an adjoining letter. Yod's downstroke is usually the same length and Vavs downstroke is usually a little longer.

In the following picture, by an Act of Providence, we have a Word with a Resh preceded by a Yod and followed by a Vav in Lion 22:8 of the same Psalm if you are following at home. I have placed this word next to the offending word for ease of Comparison.



JW:
I have also sent a color analyzed photo of fragment #8, which contains Line 22:8, to Clinician Scientist Doktor Spin and Research Scientist Dr. A for further analysis.

I grow increasingly worried that the apparent related exception for Copyright Infringement only applies to Truth-Challenged Advocates for that man from the Christian Bible whose name escapes me at the moment but I think starts with a Yod or Vav. So I have Faith that by only presenting one Word from a Fragment that may not have already been displayed in Public with the fanfare of The Shroud of Turin that the Owners who sweated blood to create the underlying book, being primarily Christian, would never ever sue me as to do so for copying a mere word would be against the Spirit of the Copyright Law (even if presenting this word in Public all by itself proves that Jesus was not the prophesied Jewish Messiah).



Joseph

TRANSLATOR, n.
One who enables two persons of different languages to understand each other by repeating to each what it would have been to the translator's advantage for the other to have said.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Apikorus

So what are we to make out of all this? I still read K)RW in line 12 of fragment 9, though I wouldn't bet the farm on it. There is ample evidence for similarity of W and Y in this hand -- the blow-up of part of fragment 3, which I posted above (here) shows that nicely. Still, I'd agree with Strawn's assessment that W and Y are generally distinguishable throughout.

JW and spin, check your email.

spin

Tell me this, Apikorus, isn't the word after YBY+W actually WR)Y? (The first letter is obviously larger than the last, which is in turn smaller than any of the final YODs.) If it isn't, why isn't it?

(And thanks for the pix.)


spin