JoeWallack

JW:
Introduction:
The Purpose of this Thread will be to try and determine the Likely Original (Hebrew) of the Psalm 22:17 word, commonly translated in English by Jewish Sources as "like a lion".

Note that Biblical Hebrew did not have sentence designation. First, the commonly divided sentence presentation in Hebrew followed by the commonly divided sentence presentation in English:

Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia : With Westminster Hebrew Morphology. 1996, c1925; morphology c1991 (electronic ed.) . German Bible Society; Westminster Seminary: Stuttgart; Glenside PA

כִּ֥י סְבָב֗וּ�*ִי כְּלָ֫בִ֥ים עֲדַ֣ת מְ�*רֵעִים הִקִּיפ֑וּ�*ִי כָּ֝אֲרִ֗י יָדַ֥י וְרַגְלָֽי


"For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet."

Judaica Press

Note that a few Hebrew letters are not being properly reproduced above but by an act of Providence, the offending word, כָּ֝אֲרִ֗י, "like a lion", is.

As an introductory assignment for The Reader, you can familiarize yourself with the issues here:

Psalm 22:16: A Prophecy of the Crucifixion? at Paul Tobin's Exxxcellent Skeptical site. I disagree with Tobin on some of his points.

I invite the Apologists here to recommend one article that is representative of their basic views. For God's sake, please don't use Miller's article as I think it is unusually bad, even by his standards.

In my opinion, the best Category of Evidence in determining the Likely Hebrew Original is the Hebrew Textual Witness. So we'll be starting with that.

I especially invite all those at II who are fluent in Hebrew, such as Spin and Apikorus, to participate so we can have a Reference Thread which thoroughly covers the Issues and get back to more important Topics like:

Mark's View Of The Disciples



Joseph

Phlox Pyros

I have checked the reading, myself, in the DJD volumes and it does appear to read "pierced".

Phlox Pyros

By the way, is that Hebrew unicode? Does it come across to everyone else? On my computer, the vowels are never under the letters where they are supposed to be. I see a letter, then a vowel, then another letter. It is very difficult to read. As far as I know most other unicode works well for me. Are you using it incorrectly, or am I doing something wrong?

Oh, and the link to the introduction site does not seem to work.

Chris Weimer

The unicode is messed up for me as well. Then again, why use vowels at all?

Anat

Works well for me except for the 'nun's.

JoeWallack

JW:
For those who are suspicious about how this is turning out let me just say for the record that I don't know Phlox Pyros and have never worked with him before.

This is exactly why this Thread is needed:

1) "Psalm 22 is a favorite among Christians since it is often linked in the New Testament with the suffering and death of Jesus. A well-known and controversial reading is found in verse 16, where the Masoretic Text reads "Like a lion are my hands and feet," whereas the Septuagint has "They have pierced my hands and feet."

JW:
No Christian Bible author makes the connection between "Septuagint has "They have pierced my hands and feet." and Jesus' supposed crucifixion. Amazing isn't it, considering the nebulous proof-texting otherwise employed. This indicates it Likely that at the time the Christian Bible was written there was no available text that said "They have pierced my hands and feet."

2) "the Septuagint has "They have pierced my hands and feet."

JW:
One of the meanings of "the Septuagint" is Jewish Greek translations of the Jewish Bible. We don't have any such animal preserved by Jewish hands. Christianity has preserved some which gives them less evidential weight. Even the Apologists here like Schmuelman! and Notsri would Confess to us that the primary Greek word used by "the Septuagint" here does not mean "pierced".

The related Origen Hexapla had a column for Hebrew and my guess is it said
כָּ֝אֲרִ֗י, "like a lion", here. Of course this is just speculation but what I Am more certain of is that in General the Hebrew of the Hexapla supported Jewish Hebrew translations (surprise) and that's why Christianity chose not to preserve/destroy that column.

3) "Among the {Dead Sea} scrolls the reading in question is found only in the Psalms scroll found at Nahal Hever (abbreviated 5/6HevPs), which reads "They have pierced my hands and my feet"!"

Again, even the Apologists here would Confess that the Hebrew word in question does not mean "pierced". I've indicated previously on II that Hebrew writing for this time had a tendency to elongate the "yod" when it was the last letter of a word so that it looks like a "vav". I also indicated that in the same fragment the "yod" of a word on the next line is elongated and looks like a "vav". So the word in question here may simply be כָּ֝אֲרִ֗י, "like a lion". Also, if you assume the last letter is a "vav", this would be an otherwise unknown word.

I present all this only as unsupported assertion at this time because I want to look at the Evidence in Order starting with the Hebrew Textual evidence. 5/6HevPs is part of Hebrew Textual evidence but a better start is an Inventory of Hebrew manuscripts. I'll provide a visual on 5/6HevPs shortly to show you what I Am taliking about.

JW:
This tells me that you don't know Hebrew (but don't let that stop you from posting) and that the sources you quote need to be re-written.



Joseph

Phlox Pyros

That was not very nice Joe, and I have no idea why you have acted this way toward me.

The source I presented is one of the only available sources that put the DSS Bible texts into English. It was done by reputable scholars, and I am surprised you are not familiar with it or with them.

As to my knowledge of Hebrew, I cannot claim to know it perfectly, but I do know it and that well enough to read ancient manuscripts in the Discoveries in the Judean Desert volumes. Why would you immediately deny this? Is it because you cannot counter it?

Steven Avery

Nahal Hever is an important early source.

There is a small pic of the scroll at ..
http://www.torahresource.com/Newsletter/Ps22.16.pdf
Psalm 22:16 - "like a lion" or "they pierced"

Joe above is apparently rather craftily mixing two issues.
Let's straighten them out now.

1) Noun vs. Verb
Lion or Dug/Pierced

2) If verbal reading
Dug or pierced ?

Many people don't consider #2 as very significant, as the concepts are quite close, as you can dig through something, however it is worthy of some discussion.

Also it would have to be seen if there is a separate Hebrew verb with the singular meaning of 'pierced', or whether the difference is more contextual (we don't normally talk about digging ones hands and feet, although we can dig with them, but they get pierced by a needle or a knife or more).

And definitely there is a lot more to discuss than Nahal Hever. However, it should be clear that it is an early and clear witness for the verbal reading.

There are many other early witnesses to the verbal reading. I believe that is the reading in the Peshitta, the Greek OT (according to Emanuel Tov this includes Aquila, of Jewish provenance), and the Vulgate, all early.

Even that is only a start to a real study.

However, since we are on the Nahal Hever, perhaps we can come to an agreement that it is a witness to the historic Christian reading (Geneva, King James Bible), following a minority reading in the Masoretic Text.

Shalom,
Steven
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic

JoeWallack

JW:
Your first post here was your best one.

Important viewing tip. I have noticed that using Mozilla Firefox Browser displays characters that Internet Explorer does not.

Regarding the link, as they say, "Works for me."



Joseph

TRANSLATOR, n.
One who enables two persons of different languages to understand each other by repeating to each what it would have been to the interpreter's advantage for the other to have said.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack

JW:
Hi Christ. So you know Greek, Latin, Aramaic and Hebrew but can't figure out how to Translate Mozilla. Back to "Chris"! Are you fluent in Biblical Hebrew Chris? I've also been meaning to ask you. How did you learn the Languages so early? Is your father Indiana Jones?

JW:
Then again, why did the Masoretes use vowels.

If you know how to properly display the Hebrew fonts be my guest. Most people here though are unfamiliar with the standard transliteration symbols.



Joseph