ImmortalTechnique

I keep reading about all these prophecies Jesus supposedly fulfilled as messiah... does anyone have a credible one? (if you don't, don't scare off people who think they do by pooh-poohing right away) i'd like to critically examine these claims

B.S. Lewis

Hmmm...I don't have anything with me at school, but I know there are about 60 supposed specific prophecies--and at least 7 or 8 of them are definitely beyond chance (and hence either must have been real prophecies, or were written in after Jesus, by early Christians). One of the better ones that I can remember is this:

"And the LORD said to me, 'Throw it to the potter'--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter." Zechariah 11:13

This would seem to predict, in great detail, Judas' betrayal of Jesus. According to the gospel accounts, Judas betrayed Jesus for thirty silver coins (Matthew 26:15), but then became regretful of having done it and tried to give it back to the Priests that had paid it to him in the first place. They refused it, so he threw it down on the floor of the temple ("the house of the LORD"). Then he went away and hung himself. (All this is in Matthew 27:1-10). The priests picked up the money, and used it to buy some land, which they named "Potter's Field." Hence, Judas can have been said to have "thrown it into the house of the LORD" and to have "thrown it...to the potter."

Somewhere else (I thought it was Acts, but I can't find it, so maybe it's another gospel), it says that Judas did not give back the money--he kept it, and it was he who bought Potter's Field with it. Then, while walking around purveying his new land, he tripped and "his intestines spilled out," or something like that. Quite a trip; but we can't have the betrayer of God getting of Scot-free I suppose.

And of course the classic messianic prophecy, in Psalm 22:

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?....All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads: 'He trusts in the LORD; let the LORD rescue him'....I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint....my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth....a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing." --Psalm 22:1-18

All of these things are in agreement with the Matthew account of Jesus crucifixion, in Matthew 27:27-56 (any of these that are not there ARE in one of the other gospel accounts, but I think they are all within this Matthew one):

1) That he would be mocked by those around him
2) That people would say "let God save him"
3) That he would be thirsty and ask for a drink ("my tongue sticks to the roof of my
mouth")
4) That his feet and hands would be pierced (by nails nailing him to the cross)
5) That people would gamble ("cast lots") for his clothes


P.S.--"Lord" is in all caps because I'm quoting from the NIV, which puts it in all caps whenever it translates the Hebrew "Yahweh."

Hope that helps, and maybe next weekend I can get back with some more. I'm sure they are on the web somewhere, too.

ImmortalTechnique

i suppose a lot of the problem is going to come in that we don't have any historical reference of Jesus besides the new testaments, which have a vested interest in depicting him as fulfilling these prophecies...

Amaleq13

Here are a couple of recent related threads you might want to check:

Jewish Bible Prophecy Fulfillment by Jesus According to Mark

isaiah 53 - prophecy?

ImmortalTechnique

very helpful, thank you... is there actually anything to these prophecy claims at all?

Diogenes the Cynic

No.

The passages which are claimed to be fulfilled predictions for Jesus (including the stuff cited by B.S. Lewis above) are decontextualized fragments which usually have no Messianic or even predictive intent in their original contexts. Psalm 22 is not a Messianic prophecy or any kind of prophecy at all. The "suffering servant" stuff from Isaiah is a poetic personification of Israel and does not refer to the Messiah.

There is not a single example of genuine fulfilled predictive prophecy anywhere in either the Hebrew Bible or the New Testament.

B.S. Lewis

Actually there are plenty of somewhat-early extrabiblical references to Jesus, but as far as I know all of them are either written by Christians, or suspected of having been inserted into others' writings by Christians (like the famous passage in Josephus).

Jon Promnitz

Depends on your definition of plenty. Actually, there are only a couple and they come long after Jesus' supposed life.