Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Rational BAC · 10-10-2003, 11:36 PM

I am about as liberal as they come as far as what I consider to be "true" Christians, but even I have my limits.

I think you have to accept the divinity of Christ to call yourself a Christian (the idea of a trinity is optional). So I think that the Anglican church (of which I am technically a part of as an Episcopalian) is wrong about this. There is no such thing as an atheist Christian.

BrazenPenguin · 10-12-2003, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy
I find it fascinating that the religious seem to think that they can defend their beliefs with logic. You are yet another example of that phenomenon.

I have definetly said in an earlier post that not all of the christian beliefs are logical to me, or anbody else.

BrazenPenguin · 10-18-2003, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wade-w
This is not a Tu Quoque fallacy, it's the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. You are guilty of it here as well.

whops, good call, thanks for pointing that out, also thanks to wayne, who corrected me as well. Yeah, I completly took the definition i was given the wrong way. But its okay, I told my class the real tu quoque fallacy. So, i would probably just ask the person why he was saying that i wasn't a christian, and then reply.

BrazenPenguin · 10-18-2003, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wayne Delia
For example, according to Catholics, you can't get to heaven unless you participate in the sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church. You may have a different opinion, but you don't have an objective means of demonstrating that your opinion is more valid than theirs.

But Jesus did say "no one comes to the Father but by Me, not by works, so that no man may boast" (once again, i don't have the reference, I wish I could remember those better, but its not like I'm making up verses, I promise). Understanding that any kind of sacrement or or tradition or anything would be a work, where do they get the idea that a person has to do (insert favorite catholic tradition here) in order to go to heaven? Didn't Jesus say that the only way to go to heaven was to believe in him, and that you didn't get into heaven by doing this or that?

Quote:

Originally posted by Wayne Delia
The denominations and people make widely different claims about what God's intentions are. How does one objectively tell which opinions are valid and which are not?

One reads the Bible, and then makes his opinion according to how he interpreted the Bible. There are many widely different people in this world, who think in widely different ways, and live in widely different cultures, and who have widely different opinions on everything, resulting in widely different claims about what God's intentions are. Of course, many of these claims would be deemed "incorrect" by God, even some of my beliefs, but I don't claim to be right about everything that I believe.

Starboy · 10-18-2003, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BrazenPenguin
But Jesus did say "no one comes to the Father but by Me, not by works, so that no man may boast" (once again, i don't have the reference, I wish I could remember those better, but its not like I'm making up verses, I promise). Understanding that any kind of sacrement or or tradition or anything would be a work, where do they get the idea that a person has to do (insert favorite catholic tradition here) in order to go to heaven? Didn't Jesus say that the only way to go to heaven was to believe in him, and that you didn't get into heaven by doing this or that?

Jesus said and didn't say all sorts of things. Jesus never said that he was god. Doesn't mean that he wasn't but doesn't mean that he is. So much of the bible is so equivocal that you can pretty much take what you like, fill in the blanks and then leave the rest. This explains why there are so many variants of something that is supposed to be universally �true�.

Starboy

BrazenPenguin · 10-18-2003, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wayne Delia
You are clearly wrong in your interpretation of humans "made in the image of God." God is described as omnipotent, but humans obviously are not omnipotent. God has an unlimited array of options that are simply not available to humans, so any comparison of God to human parents is way off the mark.

So I guess you would say that I cannot compare Granny Smith and Arkansas Black apples because the Granny Smith ones have green skin and the Arkansas Black ones have red skin making them not at all similar?

Quote:

Originally posted by Wayne Delia
Doesn't it seem the least bit ridiculous to you? The first question begged, I suppose, is why is all this necessary?

Um, yes, er no, sometimes, i mean. Not so much ridiculous, but amazing, i guess. It sort of does seem ridiculous that a God would leave the perfect place and come down .... you know the story ..... only to be killed by his creation. I mean, it seems like I would just be like, screw you humans, you guys spit on my face and turned your backs on me, squish.

Quote:

Originally posted by Wayne Delia
Suppose my future teenage son, Joe, becomes rebellious, lazy, and perhaps has a few beers. Do you know what the punishment recommended by the Bible actually is?

Ummm, im not sure of the exact punishment, but I would guess a stoneing?

Quote:

Originally posted by Wayne Delia
I'm sure you didn't mean to phrase it this way, because it's plainly wrong. The mythical first human couple, Adam and Eve, were banished from the Garden of Eden and condemned by God precisely because they disobeyed Him. Not only that, but God likewise condemned all of humanity - all of Adam and Eve's alleged descendants - because of Adam and Eve's disobedience.

True, but they were not condemned by God to Hell, they just had to leave Eden. There is a huge difference between being sent out of Eden, and being sent to Hell. God sent them out of Eden because of their disobedience, he didn't send them to Hell because of their disobedience.

Quote:

Originally posted by Wayne Delia
That's the guilt that the church tries to sell would-be converts: convince them they have a problem, even if they've done nothing wrong

Please, show me a person who as done nothing wrong (not necesarily according to Biblical beliefs, but then, acording to whose beliefs?)

Quote:

Originally posted by Wayne Delia
If that were not the case, then you'd be in the embarrassing position to explain exactly what, for example, my two beautiful children have ever done in their lives to deserve condemnation to hell for eternity as punishment .......... they've really been quite well-behaved. But they do lack a belief in Jesus as the son of God. So, if they were to die now, would they go to hell, and if so, why?

I see what you are trying to do, you are trying to get me to say that your too beautiful children are going to hell, then you will accuse me and my God of being terrible monsters. So I refuse, you know what I believe, and what your kids believe, make your own conclusion.

BrazenPenguin · 10-18-2003, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wayne Delia
So do the people who think they're "Real Christians," and that you're not, simply by virtue of you not being a member of their particular sect or denomination. For two extreme examples, the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Roman Catholics are at extreme ends of the spectrum, each group utterly convinced the other group is destined for hell. Also, there has been nearly continuous violence in Northern Ireland for many, many years over the fundamental differences between the Protestants and the Catholics. Each group thinks they "are on the right track," and that the same Christian God is on their side.

Yep, everybody is doing what they think is the right think, according to what they think are the right answers, but that does not mean that everybody is right, including me and you.

Quote:

Originally posted by Wayne Delia
You need to state and demonstrate the exact problems associated with being "worldly"

Ok, sure. "world" is like a slange term for "not christian", coming from when Jesus said " I am not of this world and neither are my people" (yeah, no reference, sorry, but I have only read the bible twice, not five times). So, anything worldy, would be something that a christian shouldn't do.

Quote:

Originally posted by Wayne Delia
Whether the group making the charge is actually made up of "Real Christians" or not is completely irrelevant to whether you are a "Real Christian."

Yep, your're right, how stupid of me. I take that back. Obviously, you do not have to be of a certain group to charge somebody of not being part of a certain group.

Quote:

Originally posted by Wayne Delia
Dang. I guess it's a shame that you defined a "Real Christian" as nothing more than someone who loved Jesus and obeyed His commands. That has nothing at all to do with recognizing Jesus's divinity. According to those standards, many Jehovah's Witnesses actually qualify.

Ok fine, a "Real Christain" must also recognize Jesus's divinity. Happy?

Quote:

Originally posted by Wayne Delia
If, among the 20,000 or so sects of Christianity, none of them are right, then what's the use of Christianity in total?

Huh? Do you mean that because not everybody agrees on the meanings of the Bible, Christianity isn't useful? What? What do the two statements have to do with each other? Nobody can agree in poilitics, should we be anarchist? How many theories are there to the extention of the dinosaurs? Is sceince or whatever not useful?

BrazenPenguin · 10-18-2003, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy
Jesus said and didn't say all sorts of things. Jesus never said that he was god.

Not true. The creim that the Jews charged Jesus with claiming to be God.
Jesus before the Sanhedrin - Matthew 26:62-66 "The high priest said to him, " I charge you under oath under the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ [or Messiah], the Son of God." "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouse of heaven." The the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blashpemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard blasphemy. What do you think?" "He is worthy of death," they answered.
Jesus before Pilot - Matthew 27:11 Meanwhile Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.

Oh, and Wayne, I found a verse about the "worldly" term, I don't think that its the one that I was spkeaking of, but it could be.
John 18:36 "Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servents would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

Starboy · 10-18-2003, 09:31 PM

BrazenPenguin, I see him claiming to be the son of god but not god itself. He also said that we are all children of god, and since I am a male that would also make me a son of god. As for the line about the king of the Jews, that is not the same as saying he is god. It is more in line with the claim of being the descendent of David and thus the rightful heir to the kingdom, but not god. Now you can read between the lines if you wish and jump to conclusions but Jesus never claimed outright or even implied himself to be god. His followers did this.

Starboy

BrazenPenguin · 10-19-2003, 04:30 PM

Well first of all he claimed to be The Son of God, not a son of God like you did, notice the capital letters, two different meanings. Also, he claimed to be the Christ, you have to look deep in the OT to get a lot of the prophecies and all of that, look at what dictionary.com says about Christ (i've cut some of the unnecessary parts out, so it is easier to read)

christ

anointed, the Greek translation of the Hebrew word rendered "Messiah" (q.v.), the official title of our Lord, ....... It denotes that he was anointed or consecrated to his great
redemptive work as Prophet, Priest, and King of his people. He is Jesus the Christ (Acts 17:3; 18:5; Matt. 22:42), the Anointed One. He is thus spoken of by Isaiah (61:1), and by Daniel (9:24-26), who styles him "Messiah the Prince." ........ This is he "of whom Moses in the law and the prophets did write." The Old Testament Scripture is full of prophetic declarations regarding the Great Deliverer and the work he was to accomplish. Jesus the Christ is Jesus the Great Deliverer, the Anointed One, the Saviour of men. This name denotes that Jesus was divinely appointed, commissioned, and accredited as the Saviour of men (Heb. 5:4; Isa. 11:2-4; 49:6; John 5:37; Acts 2:22). To believe that "Jesus is the Christ" is to believe that he is the Anointed, the Messiah of the prophets, the Saviour sent of God, that he was, in a word, what he claimed to be. This is to believe the gospel, by the faith of which alone men can be brought unto God. That Jesus is the Christ is the testimony of God, and the faith of this constitutes a Christian (1 Cor. 12:3; 1 John 5:1). - Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary

If Jesus was not God, then he would've been just a man. And a sinful man would not be a perfect sacrifice. Only a sinless thing could've been sacrificed to take the burden of the world's sins. The only sinless thing is God.

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10-10-2003, 11:36 PM	#141
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	I am about as liberal as they come as far as what I consider to be "true" Christians, but even I have my limits. I think you have to accept the divinity of Christ to call yourself a Christian (the idea of a trinity is optional). So I think that the Anglican church (of which I am technically a part of as an Episcopalian) is wrong about this. There is no such thing as an atheist Christian.

10-18-2003, 09:31 PM	#149
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	BrazenPenguin, I see him claiming to be the son of god but not god itself. He also said that we are all children of god, and since I am a male that would also make me a son of god. As for the line about the king of the Jews, that is not the same as saying he is god. It is more in line with the claim of being the descendent of David and thus the rightful heir to the kingdom, but not god. Now you can read between the lines if you wish and jump to conclusions but Jesus never claimed outright or even implied himself to be god. His followers did this. Starboy

10-19-2003, 04:30 PM	#150
BrazenPenguin Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Wilson, NC (but not for long!) Posts: 48	Well first of all he claimed to be The Son of God, not a son of God like you did, notice the capital letters, two different meanings. Also, he claimed to be the Christ, you have to look deep in the OT to get a lot of the prophecies and all of that, look at what dictionary.com says about Christ (i've cut some of the unnecessary parts out, so it is easier to read) christ anointed, the Greek translation of the Hebrew word rendered "Messiah" (q.v.), the official title of our Lord, ....... It denotes that he was anointed or consecrated to his great redemptive work as Prophet, Priest, and King of his people. He is Jesus the Christ (Acts 17:3; 18:5; Matt. 22:42), the Anointed One. He is thus spoken of by Isaiah (61:1), and by Daniel (9:24-26), who styles him "Messiah the Prince." ........ This is he "of whom Moses in the law and the prophets did write." The Old Testament Scripture is full of prophetic declarations regarding the Great Deliverer and the work he was to accomplish. Jesus the Christ is Jesus the Great Deliverer, the Anointed One, the Saviour of men. This name denotes that Jesus was divinely appointed, commissioned, and accredited as the Saviour of men (Heb. 5:4; Isa. 11:2-4; 49:6; John 5:37; Acts 2:22). To believe that "Jesus is the Christ" is to believe that he is the Anointed, the Messiah of the prophets, the Saviour sent of God, that he was, in a word, what he claimed to be. This is to believe the gospel, by the faith of which alone men can be brought unto God. That Jesus is the Christ is the testimony of God, and the faith of this constitutes a Christian (1 Cor. 12:3; 1 John 5:1). - Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary If Jesus was not God, then he would've been just a man. And a sinful man would not be a perfect sacrifice. Only a sinless thing could've been sacrificed to take the burden of the world's sins. The only sinless thing is God.

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