mon chi chi

For one thing, believing that there is an all-powerful God out there who not only made the universe but cares enough about our fate to become his own atoning sacrifice for us is something that gives life meaning. If there were simply a cosmic force that really didn't give a hoot about us, it would make life as meaningless as if there were no God at all. If there were no God, and we are simply the results of defying physical laws, then what happens after death? Life without God is meaningless, for no matter what we do, we still die, and even the greatest of affects upon the world fade away.

Personally, I wouldn't wish to live a pointless life. You say you're agnostic, and if I'm not mistaken, that involves the existence of God yet on a more cosmic, impersonal scale, as well as that man can influence the universe around himself, no?

Another reason would be the feasability of it all. Here you go. I wrote this a little while ago, actually, so hopefully it is as clear now as it was then.

1.) Christianity is the only one that passes "the logic test."

As hard as you may try, I doubt that you can really show the other religions to be very logical at all. Take Islam for example: the followers of Allah spend all their lives wondering whether they will be found worthy of
entering paradise in the end, for they have to somehow earn their way to
salvation. No matter how good of muslims they are, they still have the
nagging chance that they will be found wanting on the "scale of justice."
Now then, they claim Allah to be the same as YHVH, omni-everything and
perfect; how then, might I ask, is an imperfect being supposed to measure up
to perfection, or finite goodness to infinity? That makes absolutely no sense, and it means that, more than
likely, the muslim is going to have spent his life futily slaving away for
Allah only to be dropped into Hell. "Sorry Osama, you didn't bow down far
enough last Tuesday!" Wow, who would want to worship THAT god? Oh, and it
has both "love the Jew" and "slay the infidels" in the same book. We have
the Old Testament, aye, with killing in it, but remember that that was judgement upon the tribes
of Caanan that was their own fault and, oh yes, only a one time thing.
Christians and Jews were not given an everlasting command to slay the
infidel. The Crusades, since I think you might bring them up, were an
unbiblical thing run by a money-grubbing, greedy old guy in Rome who thought
he was Jesus incarnate (aka Mr. Pope). How is it possible that Islam says that
the Bible is good too, yet they say "death to the people of the book!" and
"they say Jesus is God. He shall return on the last day and condemn them!"
Oh, and notice the difference between "go ye therefore, and make disciples
of all nations, baptizing them in the name of..." (Matt.28:19-20) and "When
the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them,"
(9.5). I've got some more as well: ""Fight against such of those to whom the
scriptures were given as believe in neither Allah nor the Last Day, who do
not forbid what Allah and his apostle have forbidden, and do not embrace the
true faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued."
(9.29). How about this one? "You will fight against the Jews and you will
kill them unti even a stone would say, 'come here, Muslim, there is a Jew
hiding behind me, kill him'" (from the Haddith), versus "But I say unto you
which hear, love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, bless them
that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. Unto him that
smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away
thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also" (Luke 6:27-29), "Bless those who
persecute you," (Romans 12:14).

Hinduism: you reincarnate based on how good you are, and so does
Vishnu/Shiva/Siva/a dozen other names, and Vishnu/Shiva/a dozen other names is
also transcendent of reincarnation, He is affected by Karma too, he is above
Karma, he looks like an elephant, she looks like an elephant, she looks like
a girl, he looks like a guy, he's blue, he's orange, he has seven arms, the seven arms are just symbollic, you have to stay in your given caste, you are free to do as you like, and, oh, only Indians can be Hindus. Wow, plenty of
biological/theological/historical backing there, they can't even decide who to worship! Oh, and if one actually looks into it, Biblical Christianity is very straightforward. If you look into the Bible, the answers are there. If
you try to bring up the differences between denominations, even those are
minimal, and despite that, remember that people are still flawed. Of course
people are going to screw up and be idiots, but there is still an absolute
standard that it can all be compared to to show who is and isn't following
the Bible.

Buddhism: Look at it...yeah.

Taoism: Doing nothing is the best way to gain oneness with the tao, the universal substance of all things. Wow, "go with the flow" at its best. So,
what's the backing for this one when you take in the Second Law of
Thermodynamics? Do nothing and all is dandy, eh? Harmony of the universe,
eh? Well according to the 2nd law, the "Entropy" law, the energy of a system is lost over time and cannot be replenished, meaning that the universe has a
finite amount of energy. Sure, you can put more negative entropy (energy) into a system, like throwing away the garbage, but that always puts more entropy into the rest of the system, like the landfill. Ask any theoretical
physicist about entropy, the proven tendency for the universe to go from
order to chaos, and you'll see that this tao is a load of cow.

Rastafarianism: Black people rule, kill the whities who rule from Babylon and return to Zion (Jamaica, man)!

Christianity: there is one perfect God, in three persons, by whom and for whom all things were created (John 1). Mankind is flawed as a result of his
own sin, and therefore cannot redeem himself (Romans 3:9-31). The wages of sin is death, for only by death is justice served (Romans 6:23). Yet, Jesus Christ came down for us to be the one perfect sacrifice to reconcile us to
God, for since man cannot redeem himself, only God can redeem him by his grace. Jesus suffered through death and hell, thus paying the price for all, so that all who take upon his burden are freed from the law and eternal
death and suffering (John 3:16-17, Romans 3:24-27, 5:6-11, 16-21, and so
on). Let's see: perfect God=perfect justice. Man is imperfect, cannot be perfect and just=he goes to Hell without any help. Jesus is perfect, paid debt=salvation for all who take his gift. The precedent was set by the sacrifices of old, a life for a life. (Compare what I'm saying to Hebrews 9)
The animal sacrifices were not enough to cleanse the people once and for
all, not enough to assuage the guilt of the people before God (even back then they needed faith, see Hebrews 7-9, and Hosea 6) so a perfect sacrifice
was needed to pay the outstanding debt.

Name one way that Christianity is not logical. I shall do my best to answer
you, so go ahead.

2.) Historical and Biological Evidence. Okay, I'll reason with you. Let's say I were to start a cult and proclaim myself to be God. Okay, that's all fine and dandy, but then I go and get killed, oh no. Then my people spread
across the world saying that I am risen and said a lot of stuff. Now then, the people who live in my hometown are going to be able to go over to the
grave and say, "hey, isn't that him?" or "he didn't say that!" or "that never happened" and thus destroy the movement at the beginning. Wow, so why didn't that happen? Even the chronicles of Josephus, a Pharisee, mention
Jesus and his movement, and the existence of Paul, so we know that they existed. "So, did he not really die?" That would not be possible for anyone to survive crucifixion, not to mention move a gigantic stone and waltz out
of a tomb past a bunch of Roman guards who are trained to either do their job or be exectued. "Could they have faked the resurrection?" If that were so, then why would they die for something they knew was a hoax? Heck, most
of the apostles were crucified, one upsidedown. "What if they actually believed it despite the fact that they knew it was a hoax and thus were willing to die the worst deaths ever known to man for the sake of something
they knew was a lie?" No one would do that, and let's
take a look at these disciples that were so highly indoctrinated into a lie that they were willing to die for it. Peter, he denied Christ when he was arrested and was once called "Satan" in a rebuke, Paul was a pharisee who
killed Christians for the sake of the Church, and all but three were a bunch of lowclass, inarticulate men. Wow, who knew fishermen were so crafty? "They
did it for personal gain!" Oh yeah, you know it, "foxes have holes, and
birds have nests, but the Son of Man has NO place to lay his head." (Matt.8:19-21). Oh, and don't forget the fact that the movement actually took over Rome despite the fact that people were getting crucified, flogged, hung, impaled on poles, decapitated, and set on fire WHILE being crucified, and we all know how much people hate pain. What about those people? This was all within the span of a lifetime when persecution starting picking up, and most of the Apostles AND their opponents were still alive, so why wasn't anyone
able to descredit it at the start?
Explain that.


3.) Theological. If you actually look at both Rabbinical tradition AND Torah
prophecy, Jesus fulfilled every expectation that was in line with the Torah.

Peter Kirby

I am sending this to General Religious Discussions because it consists of theological argument and polemic against other religions.

best,
Peter Kirby

demoninho

How about this one for christian logic
an omni everything god creates world and the first human but doesn't give them knowledge of right and wrong but put a tree with a fruit of knowledge of right and wrong then condemns humanity for eating of that fruit (of course with the fore knowledge being omniscient) with sin.

Then he sends his son who the same actually as him so he actually sends himself to die to take away that sin he gave us in the first place.

Ronin

Die?

I thought that after the <yawn> crucifixion, Godman moved right into a high position of royalty in that little kingdom paradise the christian fable calls Heaven.

Some sacrifice.

And don't even get me started on the whole posthumous reward in trade for mindsnaring bondage to the shifting and oppressive representative religious authority in life.

Senseless and utterly illogical.

Barcode

I consider such a thing irrelevant in my daily life. Believers will say they derive meaning from their relationships with friends, their spouse, children, their job ... it is *precisely* the same for me.

I just don't think there's a grand explanation for the things I experience and have to take them for what they are ... no more, no less.

How? Do we see evidence of God caring about us? God certainly seems to care about the rich, the middle class, those who don't have to worry about where they will be sleeping tonight.

It is said that God never gives an individual more than they can endure -- all part of God's will or plan. Whatever that is. Well, obviously, some people *do* receive more than they can bear as suicide statistics tell us. Why didn't an all loving God alleviate their burden if he is truly all powerful?

Possessing both characteristics at once would compel such an entity to assist. *I* would if I had such powers.

Ah! But, we have free will one may say. The problem with this is that it renders God's place in our lives non existent since he is powerless to affect changes.

So, please explain to me how a being that is powerless to improve the world he created is any different to one that doesn't exist?

Moving on ...

Who knows. Current research suggests emotions and the consciousness result from chemical interactions in the brain. If it were any different, why would we even *need* a body?

God could have just created lots of souls or whatever ... the human body is rather imperfectly designed after all.

Of course. Just enjoy the show whilst you're here

I don't know. To me, it means somebody is undecided as to whether or not God exists based upon their own understanding and the evidence available to them. It is impossible to make a conclusive decision.

Which is why I might say I'm agnostic with regards to the Hindu God's; but an atheist when it comes to the Christian-Bible-you-shall-be-punished-for-not-bowing-down-to-me-on-a-regular-basis God.

Why is it our duty to even try? If somebody professes something to be true ... then as far as I can tell, it is also up to them to inform us as to why they take it to be so.

Sounds suspiciously similar to various forms of Christianity -- the rituals and names of God are different. Adds up to the same thing. Do good = rewards. Do bad = punishment from a divine deity.

We obviously can't -- and therein lies half the appeal of certain religions. We all try to live up to such lofty ideals under the threat of being condemned for straying off a Godly path.

And the more one flounders, the more one is tempted to turn to the Church or their concept of God for hope ... and it seems you go around in circles trying to improve and live up to impossible things.

Such thinking also has a tendency to lead the believer to suspect that humans = imperfect. God = perfect, so God must be more important and real relationships are secondary. And thus people begin to do strange things to please God.

I argue that it's our imperfections which make us perfect in the eyes of others. For instance, my girlfriend's controlling streak (sorry if you're reading this -- you know what I mean ) sometimes irritates me; but I could never imagine being with anybody else. It is her supposed " imperfections " which make her my ideal.

Whereas I often hear from religious people that only God should have that place in our lives.

Which is why we're told to have faith.

For some mysterious reason, the killing does not come from God. Even when God admits to being a homicidal maniac, it's " metaphorical " according to the Christians I talk too.

If that is the case, then not a single Christian has any business invoking Old Testament laws or sayings to discriminate or justify their own bigotry nowadays. Unfortunately, we see a double standard all the time.

I too would like to know how Catholics excuse their Church's bloody history, the involvement with the Nazi's, the support for various dictators. Try as I might, I can't see a link between an omnibenevolent God and the church. At least not in the state it is now.

Which is why I think even if I were a Christian, I would have to reject the church *because* of my beliefs. Ironic, isn't it ...

Oh the last day is always just around the corner. The Bible really screwed up with Revelations. Does any thinking individual honestly believe Jesus is going to return to save humanity?

Really? Does this include answers for persecuting people over the ages? Or does it just include the part about loving others? Which is it?

Would you care to be a little more specific?

The Old Testament talks of a monotheistic God time and time again. Am I to presume the word of God changes? The trinity was a later invention by the Catholic church.

If Jesus was God, then why would God need to sacrifice himself to himself to save us all? It's logically absurd.

i) How does being dunked in tap water save us from the sinful acts of two naked simple people eating fruit two thousand years ago?
ii) Explain the Trinity. If Jesus was God, why would he need to pray (before his crucifixion)? Why would he complain God has forsaken him? Why does he say that no one is good but God himself?

Even Jesus doesn't seem to think he is God -- the infallible Church appears to know different.

This really isn't a valid argument. Just look at say, the Heaven's Gate cult. Most of us think their beliefs were insane; but they died because they thought aliens were going to come and get them. What about the Jonestown massacre? Suicide bombers? Muslims who fly planes into buildings?

Clearly, people are prepared to die for the things they believe in --and when somebody is in that psychological condition, it's quite easy to see how common sense disappears out of the window.

You might wish to take a look at the Infidel's library. It might help you understand the problems with the Biblical events you cite in more depth.

andy_d

Lol!

Best argument ever!

Taffer

First off, how are we "defying" physical laws? I had sort of assumed that we were here in perfect accordance with physical laws. It's sort of hard to be anything else.

Secondly, I'm quite happy to give my puny little life it's own meaning myself. The effects it has on the world are miniscule and only visible for a few decades, but since my perspective consists of a few decades on a miniscule scale, what's the problem?


I don't know anybody who does. If you feel you need God to lead a meaningful life, sure, whatever works for you.


I don't quite follow you here. I'm willing to concede the existence of a potential god on a theoretical basis, and I certainly agree that man has a degree of control over the universe around him, but that really isn't saying much.


I don't really feel qualified to respond to the bits that expand beyond atheism since I'm nothing but a casual lurker, but I see other people are already busying themselves with them. So that's alright, then.

Paul2

Something tells me you have no idea what you're talking about.

Aravnah Ornan

The logic of the Atonement: G-d sacrificed Himself to Himself to satisfy a rule that He Himself had written.

exi

Please don't stop now... we'd love to hear your assessment of Buddhism.