Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JoeWallack · 05-26-2008, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

Quote:

13:32 But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

13:33 Take ye heed, watch [1] and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

13:34 [It is] as [when] a man, sojourning in another country, having left his house, and given authority to his servants, to each one his work, commanded also the porter to watch.

13:35 Watch [2] therefore: for ye know not when the lord of the house cometh (ἔρχεται), whether at even, or at midnight, or at cockcrowing, or in the morning;

13:36 lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping (καθεύδοντας).

13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch [3] (γρηγορεῖτε).

Ironic Parallel in "Mark" = Here "Mark" actually uses the same story but places Paul's words on Jesus' lips (where Paul said Watch for Jesus' return "Mark's" Jesus says Watch for my return).

No irony intended here, simply a metaphorical transposition. The irony is in the internal Markan re-referencing of this pericope later in Gethsemane.

Here:

Quote:

14:33 He took Peter, James and John along with him, and he began to be deeply distressed and troubled.

14:34 “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death,” he said to them. “Stay here and keep watch. (γρηγορειτε) ”

14:35 Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him.

14:36 “Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”

14:37 Then he returned (ερχεται) to his disciples and found them sleeping(καθευδοντας). “Simon,” he said to Peter, “are you asleep? Could you not keep watch for one hour?

Jiri

JW:
Hmmm, I didn't think anyone was reading this. JC (H) does not note any Irony here either. More importantly Solo, did you know that by an Act of Providence an Entity even more eagerly awaited than Jesus will SOON return by the end of this year, The Son Of Man From Uncle on DVD?

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?tit...hessalonians_5

Quote:

5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that aught be written unto you.

5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

5:3 When they are saying, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall in no wise escape.

5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief:

5:5 for ye are all sons of light, and sons of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness;

5:6 so then let us not sleep, as do the rest, but let us watch and be sober.

Paul's irony = You think you are safe because you are in your home but the combination of a thief and you sleeping makes you unsafe.

"Mark's" use of Paul above:

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_13

Quote:

13:32 But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

13:34 [It is] as [when] a man, sojourning in another country, having left his house, and given authority to his servants, to each one his work, commanded also the porter to watch [1].

13:35 Watch [2] therefore: for ye know not when the lord of the house cometh, whether at even, or at midnight, or at cockcrowing, or in the morning;

13:36 lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch [3].

I do not see anything Ironic in the Parable of 13:34-37 either. Note the formulaic 3 uses of "watch" in the Parable. I do find it reMarkable here that the main reason for Paul to write 1 Thessalonians, to answer when exactly Jesus was going to return, has possibly the most direct usage by "Mark" yet "Mark" has exorcised the Irony out of this Parable. Where Paul has the meaning of the Lord returning and Figurative use of the Thief, "Mark" has removed the thief, which removes Paul's related Irony. Was this intentional plain talk for the Reader? Note also that the purpose of 1 Thessalonians, to answer the Timing question, also connects to the longest discourse in "Mark", the l.a. This parallel emphasis is very good evidence that 1 Thessalonians was a source for "Mark" (as well as evidence that l.a. is original to "Mark").

Getting back to the l.a., it is full of Irony, again indicating that it is original to "Mark". I have Faith that "Mark" did make Paul's thief in the night theme Ironic with the introduction to the Parable:

Quote:

13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

13:27 And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

13:28 Now from the fig tree learn her parable: when her branch is now become tender, and putteth forth its leaves, ye know that the summer is nigh;

13:29 even so ye also, when ye see these things coming to pass, know ye that he is nigh, [even] at the doors.

13:30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished.

13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

13:32 But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

"Mark's" Irony is that the son is coming to judge but the son does not know when. Consistent with "Mark's theme that everyone is subject to his Irony, including Jesus. Paul makes no mention of Jesus not knowing. "Mark's" Christology is lower than Paul's which goes against his using Paul as a source if "Mark's" primary purpose was evangelical. If "Mark's" purpose was other than evangelical though, such as satirical or at least observational, a lower Christology is easier to explain.

I agree that there is Irony between the relationship of the Parable of the Lord returning and Peter's failure in Gethsemane. I deal with this in my "The Simontic Problem" - An Inventory Of "Mark's" Negative Casting Of Peter Thread here. Jesus provides a Formula for Disciple success in the Parable of the Lord returning, using the key word "Watch" 3 times, and Ironically Peter fails to remember this in the next chapter, falling asleep the formulaic 3 times. As I previously mentioned, the only words of "Mark's" Jesus that Peter, the Disciple, ever remembered was the Prediction of Peter's failure as a Disciple.

Now what's the word which would adequately describe that? Everyone is welcome to guess except for Harvey Dubish.

Joseph

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

JoeWallack · 05-29-2008, 07:24 AM

You Took The Words Right Out Of My Mouth

JW:
Criteria:

Over at Neal Godfree's superior Vridar:

Clark’s criteria for valid parallels

Neal discusses criteria for valid parallels:

Quote:

5. Structure

Larger parallel structures, even though not always perfectly matched, are another strong indication of an intent to create a double pattern. Examples: Talbert’s 32 parallels of content and sequence between the Gospel of Luke and Acts; between Acts 1-12 and Acts 13-28. The parallel structures suggest an intention to highlight a theme of continuity between Jesus and his disciples, and between the apostles and Paul.

The Beginning of 1 Thessalonians:

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?tit...hessalonians_1

Quote:

1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.

1:2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention [of you] in our prayers;

1:3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith and labor of love and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, before our God and Father;

1:4 knowing, brethren beloved of God, your election,

1:5 how that our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and [in] much assurance; even as ye know what manner of men we showed ourselves toward you for your sake.

1:6 And ye became imitators of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit;

1:7 so that ye became an ensample to all that believe in Macedonia and in Achaia.

1:8 For from you hath sounded forth the word of the Lord, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but in every place your faith to God-ward is gone forth; so that we need not to speak anything.

1:9 For they themselves report concerning us what manner of entering in we had unto you; and how ye turned unto God from idols, to serve a living and true God,

1:10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, who delivereth us from the wrath to come.

is Balanced by the Ending:

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?tit...hessalonians_5

Quote:

5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that aught be written unto you.

5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

5:3 When they are saying, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall in no wise escape.

5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief:

5:5 for ye are all sons of light, and sons of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness;

5:6 so then let us not sleep, as do the rest, but let us watch and be sober.

5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night: and they that are drunken are drunken in the night.

5:8 But let us, since we are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation.

5:9 For God appointed us not into wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

5:10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

5:11 Wherefore exhort one another, and build each other up, even as also ye do.

5:12 But we beseech you, brethren, to know them that labor among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;

5:13 and to esteem them exceeding highly in love for their work`s sake. Be at peace among yourselves.

5:14 And we exhort you, brethren, admonish the disorderly, encourage the fainthearted, support the weak, be longsuffering toward all.

5:15 See that none render unto any one evil for evil; but always follow after that which is good, one toward another, and toward all.

5:16 Rejoice always;

5:17 pray without ceasing;

5:18 in everything give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus to you-ward.

5:19 Quench not the Spirit;

5:20 despise not prophesyings;

5:21 prove all things; hold fast that which is good;

5:22 abstain from every form of evil.

5:23 And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who will also do it.

5:25 Brethren, pray for us.

5:26 Salute all the brethren with a holy kiss.

5:27 I adjure you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the brethren.

5:28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

A not bad chiasm of key words and phrases.

"Mark"?:

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_1

Quote:

1:5 And there went out unto him all the country of Judaea, and all they of Jerusalem; And they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

1:6 And John was clothed with camel`s hair, and [had] a leathern girdle about his loins, and did eat locusts and wild honey.

1:7 And he preached, saying, There cometh after me he that is mightier than I, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.

1:8 I baptized you in water; But he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit.

1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in the Jordan.

Verses:

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_16

Quote:

16:5 And entering into the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, arrayed in a white robe; and they were amazed.

16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not amazed: ye seek Jesus, the Nazarene, who hath been crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold, the place where they laid him!

16:7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter, He goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.

16:8 And they went out, and fled from the tomb; for trembling and astonishment had come upon them: and they said nothing to any one; for they were afraid.

The Chiastic style of "Mark" is becoming increasingly well known. Did Paul have something of a chiastic style and did "Mark" parallel this? Does a Bar take a Peshitta to read in the woods?

Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack · 06-02-2008, 06:57 AM

You Took The Words Right Out Of My Mouth

JW:
Criteria:

Over at Neal Godfree's superior Vridar:

Clark’s criteria for valid parallels

Neal discusses criteria for valid parallels:

Quote:

5. Structure

Larger parallel structures, even though not always perfectly matched, are another strong indication of an intent to create a double pattern. Examples: Talbert’s 32 parallels of content and sequence between the Gospel of Luke and Acts; between Acts 1-12 and Acts 13-28. The parallel structures suggest an intention to highlight a theme of continuity between Jesus and his disciples, and between the apostles and Paul.

The Beginning of 1 Thessalonians:

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?tit...hessalonians_1

Does Paul have a Chiastic paragraph (English) structure or can we at least force one?:

1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.

1:2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention [of you] in our prayers;

1:3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith and labor of love and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, before our God and Father;

1:4 knowing, brethren beloved of God, your election,

1:5 how that our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and [in] much assurance; even as ye know what manner of men we showed ourselves toward you for your sake.

1:6 And ye became imitators of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit;

1:7 so that ye became an ensample to all that believe in Macedonia and in Achaia.

1:8 For from you hath sounded forth the word of the Lord, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but in every place your faith to God-ward is gone forth; so that we need not to speak anything.

1:9 For they themselves report concerning us what manner of entering in we had unto you; and how ye turned unto God from idols, to serve a living and true God,

1:10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, who delivereth us from the wrath to come.

Hmmm, maybe proto-Chiastic?

Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack · 06-08-2008, 11:18 AM

You Took The Words Right Out Of My Mouth

JW:
Criteria:

Over at Neal Godfree's superior Vridar:

Clark’s criteria for valid parallels

Neal discusses criteria for valid parallels. Time to start a summary of the evidence.

Quote:

6. Theme

Another complementary criterion that carries weight when in conjunction with other criteria. Perhaps also an essential criterion.

Also note: Disruption of the text

If the flow of the text is disrupted, or if a pericope is awkward internally, where a parallel appears, this is a strong indicator that the parallel was an important feature in the author’s mind.

I've already said that I think Theme is easily the most important criteria
for Religious Writings.

I have Faith that Faith is clearly the single most important Theme of "Mark". A more accurate description would be Faith in "Mark's" Jesus. Faith is also clearly the most important Theme in 1 Thessalonians. Thus, the most important overall Theme of "Mark" and 1 Thessalonians is a direct match.

The specific Themes of 1 Thessalonians and their importance in "Mark", rated High, MIddle and Low, is as follows:

First paragraph:

Theme = Delivery of the Gospel

High

Second paragraph:

Theme = Reception of the Gospel

High

Third paragraph:

Theme = Message of Enduring in Affliction

High

Fourth paragraph:

Theme = Reward of the Gospel

High

Fifth paragraph:

Theme = Timing of the Reward

High

Thus at this point, Themes in General and Specifically for "Mark" and 1 Thessalonians are a Match which supports use of Source as an
explanation although the explanation could also be Themes that are consistent with a common subject.

Joseph

FAITH, n.
Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack · 02-03-2009, 07:00 AM

JW:
http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Galatians_5:24

Quote:

And they that are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts thereof.

JW:
It's clear by the context here that Paul is using "crucified" figuratively. Strong's gives a lexical figurative meaning here of:

http://www.zhubert.com/word?word=%E1...&number=691874

Quote:

Strongs # 4717 to impale on the cross; figuratively, to extinguish (subdue) passion or selfishness

JW:
I think Strongs is the worst available Lexicon in general but I think the translation here of "to extinguish (subdue) passion or selfishness" is correct based on the context and the same as other lexicons.

As we move forward many years to "Mark" we see "Mark's" Jesus' also subdue his passion during the Passion:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_14

Quote:

14:32 And they come unto a place which was named Gethsemane: and he saith unto his disciples, Sit ye here, while I pray.

14:33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be greatly amazed, and sore troubled.

14:34 And he saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful even unto death: abide ye here, and watch.

14:35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass away from him.

14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; remove this cup from me: howbeit not what I will, but what thou wilt.

JW:
Note that before the Passion Jesus is full of Passion.

Quote:

14:48 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Are ye come out, as against a robber, with swords and staves to seize me?

14:49 I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but [this is done] that the scriptures might be fulfilled.

At the start of the Passion, no physical or even verbal resistance, just complaining.

Quote:

14:60 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?

14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing.

JW:
"Mark's" clever irony. Jesus answered nothing because that is what was witnessed against Jesus. Nothing.

Quote:

Again the high priest asked him, and saith unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.

JW:
Now even the complaining has been exorcised. Just an affirmative answer.

Quote:

14:65 And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the officers received him with blows of their hands.

JW:
No reaction is reported because presumably there was no reaction.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_15

Quote:

15:2 And Pilate asked him, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answering saith unto him, Thou sayest.

JW:
Now Jesus does not even speak a full sentence and only refers to someone else's words.

Quote:

15:4 And Pilate again asked him, saying, Answerest thou nothing? behold how many things they accuse thee of.

15:5 But Jesus no more answered anything; insomuch that Pilate marvelled.

JW:
Now Jesus goes deaf and dumb for the rest of the passion (just like all those he exorcised).

Summary:
14:32 - Before the Passion Jesus is extremely emotional.

14:48 - Jesus complains about how he is arrested.

14:61 - Jesus gives an affirmative answer to a question.

15:2 - Jesus gives a brief reference to what was said to him.

15:4 - Jesus goes deaf and dumb (until God's Spirit leaves him).

Note that throughout the Passion, the greater the force against Jesus, the less his reaction. Also note that Jesus' subduing of passion during the Passion is ironically contrasted with increased passion by Peter, the Council and the soldiers, to artistically highlight Jesus' extinguishment of passion.

Thus we have it on good authority that this is more evidence of "Mark" using Paul as a source. Paul exhorted his followers to "crucify" their passions by subduing and extinguishing them. "Mark" took this thought and applied it to his Jesus during the supposed Passion.

This is also more evidence that Paul was the first to assert that Jesus was crucified:

Was Paul the First to Assert that Jesus was Crucified?

To the extent it can be demonstrated that the original crucifixion narrative ("Mark") has major elements of fiction, such as "Mark's" Jesus' lack of passion during the Passion being based on Paul's advice to followers to subdue and extinguish their passions, this undermines the historical potential of all elements of the Passion, including the crucifixion itself.

Joseph

STORY, n.
A narrative, commonly untrue. The truth of the stories here following has, however, not been successfully impeached.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

JoeWallack · 06-02-2009, 07:07 AM

You took the words right out of my mouth

JW:
Source?:

1 Corinthians 10

Quote:

16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a communion of the body of Christ?

17 seeing that we, who are many, are one bread, one body: for we are all partake of the one bread.

Parallel:

Mark 8

Quote:

13 And he left them, and again entering into [the boat] departed to the other side.

14 And they forgot to take bread; and they had not in the boat with them more than one loaf.

15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.

16 And they reasoned one with another, saying, We have no bread.

17 And Jesus perceiving it saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? do ye not yet perceive, neither understand? have ye your heart hardened?

18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?

19 When I brake the five loaves among the five thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve.

20 And when the seven among the four thousand, how many basketfuls of broken pieces took ye up? And they say unto him, Seven.

21 And he said unto them, Do ye not yet understand?

JW:
Paul makes a figurative point that the Christians partake of one bread, Jesus. Paul emphasizes "one" the formulaic 3 times. Paul's historical comparison is Moses and the Jews in the wilderness.

"Mark's" setting is also a feeding in the wilderness. It's the narrator who explains (at the subtext level) that the Disciples have one loaf with them. The Disciples declare at the Text level that they have no bread. Jesus corrects their literal understanding with a figurative explanation.

It sure looks like "Mark's" source here is Paul. If his Jesus really wanted his Disciples to understand here he should instead have just told them to read 1 Corinthians 10.

Bonus material = note that the start of 1 Corinthians 10 is also the source for "Mark's" baptism story ("Howbeit with most of them God was not well pleased").

Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

Solo · 06-03-2009, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

You took the words right out of my mouth

JW:
Source?:

1 Corinthians 10

Quote:

16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a communion of the body of Christ?

17 seeing that we, who are many, are one bread, one body: for we are all partake of the one bread.

Parallel:

Mark 8

Quote:

13 And he left them, and again entering into [the boat] departed to the other side.

14 And they forgot to take bread; and they had not in the boat with them more than one loaf.

15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.

16 And they reasoned one with another, saying, We have no bread.

17 And Jesus perceiving it saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? do ye not yet perceive, neither understand? have ye your heart hardened?

18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?

19 When I brake the five loaves among the five thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve.

20 And when the seven among the four thousand, how many basketfuls of broken pieces took ye up? And they say unto him, Seven.

21 And he said unto them, Do ye not yet understand?

JW:
Paul makes a figurative point that the Christians partake of one bread, Jesus. Paul emphasizes "one" the formulaic 3 times. Paul's historical comparison is Moses and the Jews in the wilderness.

"Mark's" setting is also a feeding in the wilderness. It's the narrator who explains (at the subtext level) that the Disciples have one loaf with them. The Disciples declare at the Text level that they have no bread. Jesus corrects their literal understanding with a figurative explanation.

It sure looks like "Mark's" source here is Paul. If his Jesus really wanted his Disciples to understand here he should instead have just told them to read 1 Corinthians 10.

Bonus material = note that the start of 1 Corinthians 10 is also the source for "Mark's" baptism story ("Howbeit with most of them God was not well pleased").

Joseph

The biblical wilderness is a place of trial - a test of faith in God. Mark opts to set up the second feeding of the faithful in the face of his disciples' obtuseness and amnesia. Yes, I agree the scene in Mk 8, is one of mass baptism in Spirit and follows Corinthians 10. Like Jesus after Jordan, the baptized are driven into the desert.

But I think there is departure from Paul. Paul claimed (in his apocalypso for the elect) that God was not pleased with most of them and overthrew them in the wilderness. In Mark's setting (of growing churchy), the four thousand were "satisfied", i.e. passed the test.

BTW, do you agree that the same passage in 1 Cor 10 was allegorized by Mark 14:22-24 ? I.e. the Last Supper would have been first served by Mark, then by Luke, and then copied back into Paul 1 Cornithians.

The problem I have crediting Paul with the 1 Cr 11;23-25 passage is exactly the 'suggestion' of Christ as bread and wine in 1 Cr 10. If Paul had Jesus on line and getting the historical info on JC (the only such communication ever !!!) from an unassailable source why would he be asking questions about it ?

Jiri

Quote:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

JoeWallack · 06-07-2009, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

.

BTW, do you agree that the same passage in 1 Cor 10 was allegorized by Mark 14:22-24 ? I.e. the Last Supper would have been first served by Mark, then by Luke, and then copied back into Paul 1 Cornithians.
Jiri

JW:
No:

1 Corinthians 11

Quote:

23 For I received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was betrayed took bread;

24 and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, This is my body, which is for you: this do in remembrance of me.

If this is original to Paul I think it explains more than it confuses. For appetizers:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_14

Quote:

20 And he said unto them, [It is] one of the twelve, he that dippeth with me in the dish.

21 For the Son of man goeth, even as it is written of him: but woe unto that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had not been born.

22 And as they were eating, he took bread, and when he had blessed, he brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take ye: this is my body.

JW:
Have you ever tried to dip matzoh Jiri (have you ever tried matzoh)? "Mark" is describing a Passover meal yet his Jesus is eating bread. "Mark" would have known the difference and his source Josephus always uses a unique word for Passover unleavened bread (yes "Matthew" and "Luke" also use "bread" but they have a good reason to, it's what their source ("Mark") has).

It must have been tempting here for "Mark" to use Aramaic, which he uses as a literary technique to emphasize resurrection connections, to describe "risen" bread, which represents the body of Christ. More important though was to make the clear connection to Paul. Paul said "bread" (because it was not Passover) so "Mark" says Jesus said "bread". This explains why "Mark" uses "bread" for the Passover. He probably also liked the idea of the Eucharist using risen bread (as opposed to the leaven of the Pharisees).

"Mark" sets the setting for the Eucharist at Passover because of Paul's related:

1 Corinthians 5

Quote:

7 Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, even as ye are unleavened. For our passover also hath been sacrificed, [even] Christ:

There are many other considerations as to whether 11:23-24 is original. Again, Captain Vaskosigan has already sailed through these Baptismal waters:

Did the Gospel of Mark know the Pauline Corpus?

Bonus material - note that "John" has no Eucharist. Why? Because his Jesus was the main entree, the Passover lamb, and not just an appetizer. Let she who has ears see.

On to the Inventory at ErrancyWiki

Joseph

"Why did the chicken missionary "cross" the road? To get to the "other" side."

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

JoeWallack · 03-13-2010, 07:44 AM

JW:
As a supplement to this post here:

http://www.freeratio.org/showpost.ph...9&postcount=45

Quote:

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Galatians_5:24

Quote:

And they that are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts thereof.

JW:
It's clear by the context here that Paul is using "crucified" figuratively. Strong's gives a lexical figurative meaning here of:

http://www.zhubert.com/word?word=%E1...&number=691874

Quote:

Strongs # 4717 to impale on the cross; figuratively, to extinguish (subdue) passion or selfishness

JW:
I think Strongs is the worst available Lexicon in general but I think the translation here of "to extinguish (subdue) passion or selfishness" is correct based on the context and the same as other lexicons.

As we move forward many years to "Mark" we see "Mark's" Jesus' also subdue his passion during the Passion:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_14

JW:
Note that "Mark" has framed Jesus' Teaching & Healing Ministry in Galilee with the emotion of anger at the beginning and ending:

Mark 1

Quote:

38 And he saith unto them, Let us go elsewhere into the next towns, that I may preach there also; for to this end came I forth.

39 And he went into their synagogues throughout all Galilee, preaching and casting out demons.

40 And there cometh to him a leper, beseeching him, and kneeling down to him, and saying unto him, If thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

41 And being moved with compassion, he stretched forth his hand, and touched him, and saith unto him, I will; be thou made clean.

Note that "compassion" is a transMission error as Ehrman has demonstrated. The original was likely "angry". Jesus than is shown with the emotion of anger at the start of his teaching & healing ministry.

Mark 3

Quote:

5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved at the hardening of their heart, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thy hand. And he stretched it forth; and his hand was restored.

6 And the Pharisees went out, and straightway with the Herodians took counsel against him, how they might destroy him.

7 And Jesus with his disciples withdrew to the sea: and a great multitude from Galilee followed; and from Judaea,

Here Jesus shows anger at the end of his Galilean Teaching & Healing Ministry.

So "Mark's" Jesus is all fired up and emotional while he is serving other people and making the guilty innocent. Jesus crucifies these emotions though when he refuses to serve himself. "Mark" once again frames Jesus' lack of emotion here at the start and end of the trial (of course the subject of the trial is what Jesus did during his Ministry (Irony meter please)):

Mark 14

Quote:

60 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?

61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and saith unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?

JW:
At the start of the trial Jesus holds his peace.

Mark 15

Quote:

4 And Pilate again asked him, saying, Answerest thou nothing? behold how many things they accuse thee of.

5 But Jesus no more answered anything; insomuch that Pilate marvelled.

At the end of the trial Jesus is likewise silent. The literary purpose of attributing anger to Jesus during his teaching & healing ministry is so that this anger can be crucified during Jesus' Passion.

There should not be much doubt at this point for the objective student that "Mark" had a sophisticated literary technique of attributing emotions/lack of emotions at the start and end of a story:

"I Am IronyMan". How Much Ironic Contrast, Transfer and Reversal Did He kraM?

This is also a useful tool for textual criticism, such as 1:41 above.

Also note the wonderful ironic contrast here. During his ministry Jesus is making the guilty innocent. During his trial, the subject of which is Jesus making the guilty innocent, the guilty (judges) make the innocent (Jesus) guilty.

Joseph

STORY, n.
A narrative, commonly untrue. The truth of the stories here following has, however, not been successfully impeached.

ErrancyWiki

JoeWallack · 04-28-2010, 07:36 AM

JW:
The legendary Vorkosigan has a whole section on parallels between "Mark" and Paul here:

Excursus: Did the Gospel of Mark know the Pauline Corpus?

Quote:

A
Romans 8:31 cites Psalm 118:6 (Mk 12:10-11 Citation of Psalm 118 and warning that the scribes want to kill Jesus)

B
Romans 13:1-7 Obey your government = (Mk 12:13-17 Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's)

C
1 Corinthians 15:12-14 (What if there is no resurrection?) = (Mk 12:18-23 Sadduccees deny resurrection)

C'
1 Corinthians 15:35-50 (What is the resurrection body like?) = (Mk 12:25-27 Like Angels in Heaven)

B'
Romans 13:8-10 (Love is fulfillment of the Law) = (Mk 12:28-34 Commandment to Love)

A
1 Corinthians 15:25-26 cites same passage from Psalm 110 as (Mk 12:35-7 Citation of Psalm 110 and warning to beware of scribes)

JW:
Keep in mind that Paul's theology was that Jesus' history was to be found in the Jewish Bible. "Mark" adopted this theology by showing that what Jesus did was what Elijah/Elisha did. But did "Mark" go beyond this to also find Jesus' history in Paul? Specifically, what Jesus said?

The above excerpt from the Vorkmeister shows the following reMarkable parallels between what "Mark's" Jesus said and what Paul said:

1) The exterior frames have quotes from Psalms. Paul has relatively few quotes from Psalms compared to their number. So what are the odds that at the start and end of a story "Mark's" Jesus refers to the same Psalm quotes that Paul did?

2) The B frames of "Mark's" Jesus' discourse refer to Paul's sayings that are next to each other in Paul.

3) The C frames of "Mark's" Jesus' discourse refer to Paul's sayings that are close to each other in Paul.

4) "Mark's" Jesus has the same order of discourse here as Paul's writings.

Further evidence that Paul, just like the Jewish Bible, was a source for "Mark". Also keep in mind that if "Mark" was also willing to use Josephus as a source:

"Mark's" Fourth Philosophy Source (After Imagination, Paul & Jewish Bible) = Josephus

than he probably was also willing to use Paul as source.

Joseph

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