Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Decypher · 07-16-2009, 02:42 PM

Apparently Claudius kicked the Jews out of Rome in the middle of the first century. Did this have anything to do with a Christian sect?

show_no_mercy · 07-16-2009, 04:13 PM

Well according to Wikipedia, he was completely against proselytizing religions. And the backbone of Christianity is evangelism and proselytism so he might have expelled Greek Christians from Rome.

Josephus, on the other hand, doesn't write about it - but that's not really saying anything.

This is what the Jewish Encyclopedia says about it:

Quote:

The Jews in Rome itself, however, in the year 49, were forbidden to hold religious gatherings, owing to continued disturbances resulting from the frequency of Christian Messianic sermons. No expulsion took place; but many Jews no doubt left Rome voluntarily. However, this measure of Claudius was certainly not directed against the Jewish religion.

Toto · 07-16-2009, 04:26 PM

There is one line in Suetonius:

http://www.textexcavation.com/suetoniustestimonium.html

Quote:

Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome.

That's all we know. Chrestus was a common name for a slave (it means "good" or "useful"), and it has been theorized that this was a garbled report of Christianity.

A previous thread that might be of interest

Suetonius and Tacitus

Richard Carrier remarks here:

Quote:

Suetonius writes Iudaeos impulsore Chresto assidue tumultuantis Roma expulit, "He expelled the Jews from Rome who were constantly raising a tumult because of the instigator Chrestus." This could not refer to Christians for several reasons, among them: (1) Suetonius makes no such mistake elsewhere, where he knows who the Christians are and how to refer to them--so if he meant Christians here, he would have said something like "because of the Christians" and not "because of the instigator Christ." (2) Suetonius did not write "because of the instigator Christ" but "because of the instigator Chrestus," and Chrestus was a common Greek name (and a common nickname, which meant Handy, Happy, or Goodfellow), and though a misspelling is possible (either by a later scribe or Suetonius' source), that would be mere speculation. (3) Claudius would not expel "the Jews raising a tumult" rather than the Christians, since the Jews had a protected legal status and the Christians did not. For example, neither Gallio nor the Asiarchs of Ephesus expelled the rioters in their towns--they expelled the Christians whose presence provoked the riots--and if it was the Christians whom Claudius expelled, Suetonius would have said so. (4) The phrase "because of the instigator Chrestus" makes no sense as a reference to a dead man or a god. The word instigator very specifically means a man who performs the act, not the idea of a man, nor does it ever refer to the abstract idea of "instigation" or "cause." Therefore, Suetonius plainly meant some actual person was actively instigating the riots, someone whose name was Chrestus. He would not refer to what was in his view a nonexistent God with such a phrase, nor could he have meant "because of Christ" in any other sense of the word.

Decypher · 07-16-2009, 04:51 PM

Thanks Toto.

aa5874 · 07-16-2009, 07:48 PM

But even "God" was associated with "the Good".

This is "Against Celsus"1.25

Quote:

And perhaps there is a danger as great as that which degrades the name of “God,” or of “the Good,” to improper objects, in changing the name of God according to a secret system, and applying those which belong to inferior beings to greater, and vice versa.

And earlier in the same book Against Celsus 1.24

Quote:

..... He, therefore, who has a nobler idea, however small, of these matters, will be careful not to apply differing names to different things; lest he should resemble those who mistakenly apply the name of God to lifeless matter, or who drag down the title of “the Good” from the First Cause, or from virtue and excellence, and apply it to blind Plutus, and to a healthy and well-proportioned mixture of flesh and blood and bones, or to what is considered to be noble birth.

See www.newadvent.org

Steven Carr · 07-17-2009, 01:32 AM

There are often apologist claims that the kicking out of the Jews from Rome was what Paul meant when he wrote that God's wrath had come against the Jews.

aa5874 · 07-17-2009, 05:24 AM

It is interesting to note that use of the word Christus or Chrestus was associated with Jews. Tacitus in Annals claimed that the Christian superstition which originated in Judaea got its name from Christus and Suetonius claimed Jews were expelled from Rome because of Chrestus.

And now Tertullian in Ad Nationes 1

Quote:

….The name Christian, however, so far as its meaning goes, bears the sense of anointing. Even when by a faulty pronunciation you call us Chrestians (for you are not certain about even the sound of this noted name), you in fact lisp out the sense of pleasantness and goodness….

So it is likely that there was some confusion with the words “Christian” or “Chrestian” and that JEWS in ROME were either called Christians or Chrestians or that JEWS in ROME were associated with and followers of characters called Christus or Chrestus from since the time of Tiberius to Nero.

Roger Pearse · 07-17-2009, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Carrier

Suetonius writes Iudaeos impulsore Chresto assidue tumultuantis Roma expulit, "He expelled the Jews from Rome who were constantly raising a tumult because of the instigator Chrestus."

Breaking it down:

expulit (he expelled, perfect singular active) roma (from Rome, ablative singular) iudaeos (the jews, accusative plural), assidue (constantly, adverb) tumultuantis (making an uproar, present active participle, -- but is this genitive? sing) impulsore (with the instigator, abl or dat sing) Chresto(Chrestus, abl or dat sing).

The tumultuantis... is this really ablative? Wouldn't that be tumultuantibus? What is the construction here?

Quote:

This could not refer to Christians for several reasons, among them:

I think we shall see that 'may not' rather than 'could not' would be appropriate.

Quote:

(1) Suetonius makes no such mistake elsewhere, where he knows who the Christians are and how to refer to them--so if he meant Christians here, he would have said something like "because of the Christians" and not "because of the instigator Christ."

Does this really tell us much? Surely it only indicates either that Suetonius did not realise that Christians were involved, or chose not to mention them?

Even today it would be perfectly possible to say something like:

"Rioting took place in Germany today because of Karl Marx" without Marx being alive even.

Quote:

(2) Suetonius did not write "because of the instigator Christ" but "because of the instigator Chrestus," and Chrestus was a common Greek name (and a common nickname, which meant Handy, Happy, or Goodfellow), and though a misspelling is possible (either by a later scribe or Suetonius' source), that would be mere speculation.

Certainly; but if this is not our Christ, we have no information on who it is. Do we need to invent an otherwise unknown Chrestus, when we know Christians were on the loose and the Jews were excited about this? If so, why?

It isn't enough to appeal to the existence of people called Chrestus in inscriptions. We need a Chrestus who is causing the Jews to get all angry in this period. Do we have any other documented candidate but Jesus?

Just turning this upside down, tho; even if we only have Jesus who qualifies, this would not be certain evidence that this DOES refer to him.

Quote:

(3) Claudius would not expel "the Jews raising a tumult" rather than the Christians, since the Jews had a protected legal status and the Christians did not. For example, neither Gallio nor the Asiarchs of Ephesus expelled the rioters in their towns--they expelled the Christians whose presence provoked the riots--and if it was the Christians whom Claudius expelled, Suetonius would have said so.

None of the 'would not', 'would have' seems very useful to me. We don't know the ancient world sufficiently well to make such pronouncements other than tentatively.

No-one is suggesting that the Jews remained and Christians were expelled. The passage is suggesting that unspecified Jews were expelled.

Do we really think that the legal status of Jews would prevent the Emperor-Censor from kicking them out if they were a nuisance?

Quote:

(4) The phrase "because of the instigator Chrestus" makes no sense as a reference to a dead man or a god. The word instigator very specifically means a man who performs the act, not the idea of a man, nor does it ever refer to the abstract idea of "instigation" or "cause." Therefore, Suetonius plainly meant some actual person was actively instigating the riots, someone whose name was Chrestus. He would not refer to what was in his view a nonexistent God with such a phrase, nor could he have meant "because of Christ" in any other sense of the word.

NB: I have not researched the word "instigator" to verify these claims about it and its use.

However Suetonius is not writing from his own knowledge, but from a report about the events; I have heard that sometimes reporters can get confused on these issues. So this really doesn't tell us much.

I think what Richard has articulated here are the usual problems with this passage. They are indeed valid concerns, but inconclusive. Nothing in them forces us to believe that this is an otherwise unknown Chrestus; or that it cannot be Christ.

My own view is that it probably is "arguments about Christ" which are in this, but that we can have no certainty on this. I myself regard it as "half a reference", if that makes sense.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

07-16-2009, 02:42 PM	#1
Decypher Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: England Posts: 688	Claudius kicking out the Jews Apparently Claudius kicked the Jews out of Rome in the middle of the first century. Did this have anything to do with a Christian sect?

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07-16-2009, 04:51 PM	#4
Decypher Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: England Posts: 688	Thanks Toto.

07-17-2009, 01:32 AM	#6
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	There are often apologist claims that the kicking out of the Jews from Rome was what Paul meant when he wrote that God's wrath had come against the Jews.

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