Clivedurdle

Assuming Biblical dating is in any way useful, when would Babel have been destroyed and languages then grown from.

What evidence of different languages do we have before the fall of Babel?

John Kesler

The Bible itself gives the evidence in the preceding chapter, Genesis 10:

Clivedurdle

I don't remember apologists agreeing we have two stories about the origins of languages! If the Garden of Eden and the Flood are literal, so must Babel be!

Toto

Here's our last thread on the Tower of Babel

There's also the Chinese History thread, with evidence of other languages from before the Tower:

Clivedurdle

I was trying to start a discussion about languages (and a wee bit of yec baiting!)

(Article about Chomsky in today's Guardian!)

If there are flaws with this story about the origin of languages - contradictions with the previous chapter in Genesis and clear archaelogical evidence of languages prior to an Ussher timeline for Babel - are not these better grounds for questionning than rebutting Noah's Ark stuff and creationism?

Roland

Both Egyptian and Sumerian writing date back as far as 3200 B.C.

The Tower of Babel story would have come in at around 2200 B.C.

I did have one guy argue that the Egyptian and Sumerians had different WRITING styles but that they might still have been the same spoken language. I don't know how much water that view holds - not much I imagine - but I don't know enough about languages to argue against it definitively.

TedM

Here is something I came up with several years ago about languages and the Babel story in general:



TOWER OF BABEL AND THE SPREAD OF LANGUAGE.............. Genesis 11

As far as I can tell, historical linguists differ in their opinions, but there is a growing acceptance (I don't know if it is the majority or not) of the idea that all of the major languages of the world sprang from one common language. An example is in the basic words for 'one (finger)' and 'two (fingers)': Table 2. Some Global Roots
of the Words "One" and "Two"

Location Language Tik (one) Pal (two)
Africa Proto-Afro-Asiatic Nimbari *tak bala
Europe Zyrian Votyak tik pal (half)
Asia Proto-Sino-Tibetan Jeh *tyik bal
Oceania Proto-Karonan Proto Australian *dik *-pal
North America Eyak Wintun tikhi palo- South America Aguaruna Colorado tikii palu

This seems to be strong evidence in support of that theory. If this theory is correct, the account of the confusion of languages at the Tower of Babel would appear to be mythological because we would expect distinct language differences at that time, while the evidence suggests a gradual change over time.

There are many ziggurats--towers--in that region of the world. There is one in Babylon that was uncompleted for hundreds of years, and finally was completed under King Nebechednezzar. It is reasonable to conclude that this is the tower the writer of Genesis was referring to. However, it's existance doesn't validate the miraculous portion of the account. There is a Chaldean account which I understand most archeologists believe refers to the Tower of Babel which explains that it wasn't completed because of a structural problem.

Unlike the Creation, the Old Ages, and the Flood, which have some basis in fact but can be explained as reflecting the development of myth, I am hard-pressed to find a reasonable alternative to explain the existance of apparant multiple stories like the Tower of Babel throughout the world. One in Mexico is very similar--with the building of a pyramid, and includes the confusion of language by the Gods. Another is found in ancient Sumerian writings with strong similarities. There are reports of a similar story in multiple other cultures--including primitive peoples also, although I don't know how accurate those are. While it is easy to explain why a large Tower would have been built and not completed, It doesn't seem easy to explain why there would exist a widespread belief that the reason was due to a confusion of languages. Perhaps over time dialects became more pronounced--causing greater difficulty in communication. Perhaps this came to a head when there was an attempt to build a Tower by a group which had multiple dialects and arguments/confusion broke out. This could have been the first case of a story to explain the phenomenon of the development of dialects--rather than having a natural cause (isolation), it is attributed to the Gods. I'm not sure I buy this idea, but if it was based on an actual significant incident involving the gods (which Towers may have been built for), it doesn't seem too far out to me.

Yet, there also is a sign of myth: In Genesis 11:9 it says "Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth." 'Babel' is derived from 'Bab-ilu' in the Babylonian language, which means 'gate of God'. In Hebrew, a similar word--'balal' means mixed or confused or counfounded. Therefore the name of the Tower really appears to have nothing to do with confusing of the languages. This suggests that the writer derived the story of the confusion of languages from the name of the Tower, as opposed to from any real miraculous event.

The last two paragraphs are clearly opposed to each other.

ted

mata leao

the tower of Babel somewhow reminds me of the united nations.....just an eery thought!