FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Yesterday at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-01-2004, 04:13 PM   #21
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,562
Default

Quote:
Finch
You have not responded to my point that the discription of tongues in Acts 10 and 14 are consistent with those described in Paul's writings. If you are going to say the author of Acts and Paul had a different concept of tongues you need to address the latter references to tongues in Acts as well.
This is all that I was able to find.

Acts 10
45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,


Acts 19
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.


How do you know that the author is speaking here of something different than in Acts 2? I just don't see it.

I would suspect that in both cases they heard these people speak Hebrew (ie their own mother tongues) and that is how they knew that they were speaking in tongues.

To prove your point you need to find a case where it is stated that nobody understood. In that case the writer would be contradicting himself.

Quote:
Finch
I have not done a search, but off the top of my head I am not aware of any other portion of scripture talking about people hearing their own language when people spoke in tongues. If that is correct then the passage itself shows that it was exceptional.
Off the top of my head I would say that I am not aware of any other portion of Acts/Gospels where people speak in tongues and nobody understands them.

If you can find anything let me know.

What Paul says is very much what people do today.
Paul is rather realistic about this. He knew what we all know that people who speak in tongues just mumble.

Acts on the other hand is pure fantasy.
If you are going to make such a claim, might as well make a good story and that is what Acts does.

You are in fact saying that the disciples actually received something no one else did. Paul denies this. He sees himself no different than any apostle of Jesus including Peter.
NOGO is offline  
Old 04-02-2004, 11:47 AM   #22
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Georgia
Posts: 718
Default

I read somewhere--I think in Bruce Bawer's Stealing Jesus--that the first modern instance of Christian glossolalia occurred in 1901. I've been told that some Pentecostals speak in tongues routinely; my department head, according to her niece, sometimes speaks in tongues while cooking. And I have seen evangelists on television speak in tongues very casually. I tend to think it's gibberish.

Craig
Craigart14 is offline  
Old 04-02-2004, 06:25 PM   #23
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 323
Default

I think it has to do with the ripple effect miracles tend to follow. Its more difficult to fraudulently re-produce the miracle of being able to become literate through the will of God. Add to that the art of pious misreadings (without which Christianity itself wouldn't exist) and voila.
Al Kafirun is offline  
Old 04-02-2004, 10:53 PM   #24
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: England
Posts: 5,629
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NOGO
Paul on the other hand has a very different notion of the idea of speaking in tongues.

1 Cor 14
2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands,
but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
The next verse is also interesting :-
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing

Contrast that with the words of Jesus in Matthew 17:20 He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

Jesus praises what Paul disparages.


Paul implies that you must have great faith to move mountains, while Jesus says even a small faith can move mountains.

One of them is not on message. Paul clearly does not think much of the teaching of Jesus.
Steven Carr is offline  
Old 04-03-2004, 12:39 AM   #25
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Barrayar
Posts: 11,866
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosh
I always speak in toungues with my wife. But she always interprets it the same! "Oh God.... yeah.....right......THERE!"

I'll be here till friday.
Your wife says "Oh God.... yeah.....right......THERE!" and you reply "I'll be here till Friday?"

No wonder she loves you.....
Vorkosigan is offline  
Old 04-03-2004, 12:52 AM   #26
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: earth
Posts: 414
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mageth
And I find it interesting that you brought up the Tower of Babel. Reading the earlier posts in this thread, I was thinking about the Acts Pentecost account and how it might be viewed in light of the Babel myth. One could view Pentecost as itself a myth of how God restored or is restoring common language, or common understanding among people, that he took away at Babel.

An interesting way to look at it, anyway.
Woah! That’s nice! You could probably do your honors paper on something like that!(especially if you dropped the part about it being a myth). That’s the sort of fruity thing they love! Good work. Mind if I talk about that with a couple of friends doing Luke/Acts in college this semester?
LP675 is offline  
Old 04-03-2004, 07:02 AM   #27
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: earth
Posts: 414
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LP675
Woah! That’s nice! You could probably do your honors paper on something like that!(especially if you dropped the part about it being a myth). That’s the sort of fruity thing they love! Good work. Mind if I talk about that with a couple of friends doing Luke/Acts in college this semester?
Oops, its been done
LP675 is offline  
Old 04-03-2004, 09:02 AM   #28
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 608
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mageth
.And I find it interesting that you brought up the Tower of Babel. Reading the earlier posts in this thread, I was thinking about the Acts Pentecost account and how it might be viewed in light of the Babel myth. One could view Pentecost as itself a myth of how God restored or is restoring common language, or common understanding among people, that he took away at Babel.

An interesting way to look at it, anyway.
Actually that's exactly what I used to think, which is why I brought it up in this thread.
Though it seems crazy to think that the Babel myth could be seen as factual, many do. I remember listening to a lecture where it was demonstrated that the tower was even built with water proof materials in case God would break his promise and send another flood!
Paradox is offline  
Old 04-03-2004, 11:14 PM   #29
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas
Posts: 29,689
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LP675
Oops, its been done
Yeah, I don't think the idea is original to me, unfortunately. But, of course, feel free to discuss it with whoever you want!
Mageth is offline  
Old 04-05-2004, 01:55 AM   #30
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Wessex, UK
Posts: 35
Default

בְּרֵ×?שִית בָּרָ×? ×?ֱלֹהִי×? ×?ֵת ×”Ö·ï*‰Ö¸×žÖ·×™Ö´×?
ThankGodImAnAtheist is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:38 AM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.