Ben C Smith

A question for Jesus Mythicists, primarily.

Romans 5.6:

For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

Galatians 4.4:

But when the fullness of time came, God sent forth his son....

Galatians 3.16, 19:

Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say to seeds, as if to many, but rather to one, to your seed, that is, Christ.

....

Why the law then? It was added on account of transgressions, ordained through angels by the hand of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

Paul writes that Jesus was sent in the fullness of time, died at the right time, and came as the seed to whom the promises had been made. What approximate point in time do you think Paul had in mind, and why?

Thanks.

Ben.

GakuseiDon

I think that we can also add Romans 5 to the list:

Romans 5.12:

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned-- (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

This reinforces Gal 3, suggesting that Paul places Jesus's death after Moses.

Here is what Doherty says on when the early Christians mythicists placed the event (my emphasis):
http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/supp08.htm

"For Paul and his contemporaries, such things as Christ underwent and the available benefits which flowed from them, are God’s secrets. They are the “mysteries” of this higher sphere, taking place “before or beyond time” (the pro chronōn aiōniōn of 2 Timothy 1:9; see Part Two)...

As Paul presents it, scripture was not the prophecy of Jesus’ life and activities. It was the prophecy of the gospel which told of those activities.

This means that no life of Jesus intervened between the writing of scripture and the revelation of the gospel to Paul. Wherever or whenever the activities of the Son had taken place, it had not been located in history between the two events.

This is perfectly consistent with the manner of presentation we can see throughout the New Testament epistles, especially in connection with the revelation of God’s “mystery.” The secret of Christ has been hidden for long ages, and the first bringing to light of that secret, the first action on God’s age-old promises, has taken place not in a life of Jesus in the recent past, but in the inspirations and activities of missionary prophets like Paul."

Niall Armstrong

Paul writes that Jesus was sent in the fullness of time, died at the right time, and came as the seed to whom the promises had been made. What approximate point in time do you think Paul had in mind, and why?[/QUOTE]

I find these questions interesting and important. I’m sad to see that no-one else has picked up the gauntlet, but I’ll try to give my interpretation, and hope this will lead to better responses.
These quotes do seem to imply that Jesus died at a certain past point of time. Interpreting this within MJ-theory is consequently a challenge, and may be construed as ad-hoc theories by critics. But perhaps it isn’t too difficult to see how this would make sense within an MJ-scenario.

As these are all Pauline quotes, I’ll try to interpret it as I understand Doherty interprets Paul. This might make it even more difficult for us, because Doherty says that Paul does not interpret Jesus as fulfilling prophesies, but as speaking through them. So we cannot, for example, say that these events are seen as happening sometime after the prophesies involved. But this is surely also the correct way to look at these passages: It is within the scripture that these events are to be observed. It was through reading the prophesies that they were able to see the sacrifice of Christ. The scriptures that were seen as giving us the framework for “God Saves” (aka JC) were mainly the prophets and psalms. These are writings that post-date Abraham, Moses and David, and consequently can be seen as fulfilling promises given them, and ending the covenants with the first two.
This does seem like a strange interpretation with modern eyes, but do remember that when we do have a direct quotes of Jesus (in Hebrews), they are actually direct quotes from the OT. So if Jesus speaks there, we can also read that he dies there.

I suppose that this death actually is dependent upon being able to read the text. So the right time, the fullness of time, is actually the present, while Paul and his colleagues are reading and interpreting the OT. This is also how Paul could say to the Galatians (3:1) “Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.” And Paul or pseudo-Paul could say to the Ephesians (2:17) “He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near.” The Galatians could see it, I believe, because by reading scripture it was made clear. The Ephesians could be evangelized to by Jesus through reading the same scripture.

Well, that was my two cents. Anyone wish to raise?

GakuseiDon

Hi Niall! Thanks for that. Yes, it would have been good to have gotten responses from those mythicists who support Doherty. I think that testing his statements help to clarify his position. This is the type of investigation that I would encourage mythicists to participate in, since it will have to happen at some stage.

I understand. I think it becomes ad-hoc when special pleading is used, e.g. "when Paul says x, it means y here but z there". That's why it's important that Doherty's statements are "stress-tested", so that these things can be uncovered. I can only see such investigation as building a stronger case for mythicism if it withholds such scrutiny.

If I read you correctly, you believe that Christ's sacrifice is located in the post-Abraham scriptures, thus fulfilling the promises made in the pre-Abraham scriptures? And the "fullness of time" refers to the present uncovering of this mystery?

Those relate to the preaching about Christ, yes, though I don't see how they speak either for or against historicity (perhaps I'm missing something here?).

We still have the other statements by Paul. One of the quotes in Ben's OP is:

Romans 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

Paul is linking one time (Christ's death) to another time ("while we were still helpless"). When was that time? AFAICS if the death was found in Scriptures, then "at the right time Christ's death for the ungodly was revealed" would make sense, but not "Christ died for the ungodly".

Clivedurdle

But why is the HJ proposed time the right time? Why a Roman Occupied territory then?

I always thought this was to do with Paul's sense of having had a revelation, and as I have noted elsewhere here, an alchemic sense that he had been shown the philosopher's stone of life and death, through the magick of transforming bread into flesh and wine into blood.

He believed Christ had revealed to him at the appointed time the secrets of life, the universe and everything. Regrettably he had not had the assistance of Douglas Adams.

Wonderful mythic stuff, reinforced in the early twentieth century by the concept of the unconscious.

I am puzzled by the continuous need to get the facts right of what happened when and where in this basically fabulous world!

pharoah

What is Paul talking about here? What angels and what mediator?

GakuseiDon

The mediator can only be Moses. According to this link, "Jewish tradition had angels carrying the law to Moses at Sinai". Thus "until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made" would seem to place Jesus coming at some time after Moses.

Clivedurdle

See? More magickal thinking! Words in a book imprisoning? Jesus coming along and introducing the new magick ingredient faith?

Actually, if a xian uses the word faith, we should note this definition in Galatians, some kind of replacement for magick scriptural law!

Then all this stuff about faith and works! Chinese whispers, logical error upon logical error! What a mess!

Malachi151

Doesn't all people leading movements say "NOW IS THE TIME!"

I don't see much to this. As Neil said, I think this has to do with Paul himself. He is a missionary and apostle, HIS time is the right time according to him.

Ben C Smith

I was asking what time Paul thought Christ died, not what time Paul thought he himself was preaching, or what time Paul thought was a good time to become a believer.

Here are the references again:

For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

But when the fullness of time came, God sent forth his son....

Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say to seeds, as if to many, but rather to one, to your seed, that is, Christ.

Why the law then? It was added on account of transgressions, ordained through angels by the hand of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

When did Paul think that Christ had come and died?

Ben.