Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 10-23-2007, 12:56 PM

This seems to pull the rug out from a lot of recent comments

Thirteenth Apostle: What the Gospel of Judas Really Says (or via: amazon.co.uk) by April D. Deconick

Quote:

In 2006 National Geographic released the first English translation of the Gospel of Judas, a second-century text discovered in Egypt in the 1970s. The translation caused a sensation because it seemed to overturn the popular image of Judas the betrayer and instead presented a benevolent Judas who was a friend of Jesus. In The Thirteenth Apostle April DeConick offers a new translation of the Gospel of Judas which seriously challenges the National Geographic interpretation of a good Judas. Inspired by the efforts of the National Geographic team to piece together this ancient manuscript, DeConick sought out the original Coptic text and began her own translation. "I didn't find the sublime Judas, at least not in Coptic. What I found were a series of English translation choices made by the National Geographic team, choices that permitted a different Judas to emerge in the English translation than in the Coptic original. Judas was not only not sublime, he was far more demonic than any Judas I know in any other piece of early Christian literature, Gnostic or otherwise." DeConick contends that the Gospel of Judas is not about a "good" Judas, or even a "poor old" Judas. It is a gospel parody about a "demon" Judas written by a particular group of Gnostic Christians known as the Sethians who lived in the second century CE. The purpose of the text was to criticize "mainstream" or apostolic Christianity from the point of view of these Gnostic Christians, especially their doctrine of atonement, their Eucharistic practices, and their creedal faith which they claimed to have inherited from the twelve disciples.

DeConick discusses this in various postings on her Forbidden Gospels Blog

Quote:

. . . . As I worked through the Coptic and then sat and studied the text as a whole, I quickly came to see that Judas is not a good guy in this gospel. He is not Jesus’ friend or the greatest disciple. I began to wonder why the NG team translated in reference to Judas “daimon” as “spirit” when its most accepted translation is “demon.” I wondered why the team chose to say that Judas is “set apart for” the holy generation, when the Coptic actually reads that he is “separated from” the holy generation. And so forth.

What does the Coptic really say? The Coptic says that Judas is a demon, that he will be instrumental in bringing about Jesus’ sacrifice, that this was the worst thing he could do. Jesus tells Judas that he will not go to the Kingdom, that he is working for the demiurge Ialdabaoth-Nebruel, that he will lament and grieve his terrible fate. Furthermore, the text says that Jesus will tell him the mysteries of the Kingdom not so that he will go there, but so that Judas will lament greatly his actions within the cosmic drama. Judas is separated from the holy generation. He is the thirteenth demon, which means he is to be associated with Ialdabaoth, the “thirteenth” archon or ruler in Sethian Gnosis.

. . . What is troubling to me is that the provisional Coptic transliteration which NG put out in April 2006 was not finished, but scholars published translations and interpretations based on it. It contained reconstructions of the Coptic that were erroneous, including the statement that Judas will ascend to the holy generation and that he would be taught the mysteries of the Kingdom because it was possible for him to go there. The Coptic text does NOT say this. It says the opposite, and this has been corrected (thank goodness!) in The Critical Edition that NG put out this last summer. The problem is that now the world thinks that Judas is a Gnostic hero when in fact the Gospel of Judas says nothing of this. In fact, it says the opposite. . . .

Toto · 10-23-2007, 01:00 PM

In the Epilogue, Deconick speculates that the modern need to rehabilitate Judas is a reaction to the Holocaust and Christian guilt over the treatment of the Jews.

douglas · 10-23-2007, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

In the Epilogue, Deconick speculates that the modern need to rehabilitate Judas is a reaction to the Holocaust and Christian guilt over the treatment of the Jews.

Having not read her book myself, does this strike you as somewhat of a backdoor slam against Stephen Emmel, the coptologist who did the first translation? Is she suggesting this was a biased translation on his part? I would think Emmel would welcome the criticism of his translation, but not so sure he would appreciate Deconick's "speculation."

VoxRat · 10-23-2007, 05:55 PM

I take it, then, that Pagels and King book (or via: amazon.co.uk) is based on the "mistranslation"?

Magdlyn · 10-23-2007, 07:56 PM

I thought daemon/daimon did mean spirit in Greek. Not sure how she went from Greek daemon to the Coptic word, to the English demon...

dai·mon (dī'mōn') Pronunciation Key
n. Greek Mythology

1. An inferior deity, such as a deified hero.
2. An attendant spirit; a genius.

Diogenes the Cynic · 10-23-2007, 10:11 PM

I feel at a disadvantage for not knowing Coptic. I too am confused by her reference to the word daimon. Is she referring to the Greek word (which more often denotes spirits or minor deities than demons [although the NT uses it to designate demons]) or is she referring to some similar Coptic word?

I'm also not sure that "set apart" and "separated from" are substantially different in meaning.

I don't know that she's wrong but I don't have the Coptic to evaluate her arguments. I'll have to wait and see what rebuttals might be forthcoming from the original translation team.

mountainman · 10-23-2007, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

I feel at a disadvantage for not knowing Coptic. I too am confused by her reference to the word daimon. Is she referring to the Greek word (which more often denotes spirits or minor deities than demons [although the NT uses it to designate demons]) or is she referring to some similar Coptic word?

Here is a context of the word 'daemon' given by Ammianus.

the comic poet Menander,
in whom we read these two searii:

"A daemon is assigned to every man
At birth, to be the leader of his life".

neilgodfrey · 11-09-2007, 02:27 PM

I have written up a couple of posts giving an intro to and a summary of a key section of April DeConick's new book, The Thirteenth Apostle, with its revised translation of the gospel of Judas.

I have posted them here.

Neil Godfrey

neilgodfrey · 11-10-2007, 01:18 AM

Have gone further and now have a description and review of my reading of her translation and critique of the National Geographic translation and background to the gospel itself -- here at What the Gospel of Judas Really Says

and a discussion of specific translation differences here at Opposing Translations

Roger Pearse · 11-10-2007, 01:30 AM

If all this is true, it's good to see some work being done on this, although we all want more detail, and as far as I know no critical text has yet been published. It will be interesting to see what Coptologists say.

But ... let's not forget that the NG translation and text were made freely available on the web. Is that true for Deconick's version, or do we have to buy a book to check her claims? Is there any chance that this is just "buy my book" stuff? Admittedly it doesn't sound like it, but... Probably just my deep-seated paranoia!

All the best,

Roger Pearse

11-09-2007, 02:27 PM	#8
neilgodfrey Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Darwin, Australia Posts: 874	Notes on DeConick's new translation I have written up a couple of posts giving an intro to and a summary of a key section of April DeConick's new book, The Thirteenth Apostle, with its revised translation of the gospel of Judas. I have posted them here. Neil Godfrey

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10-23-2007, 01:00 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	In the Epilogue, Deconick speculates that the modern need to rehabilitate Judas is a reaction to the Holocaust and Christian guilt over the treatment of the Jews.

10-23-2007, 05:55 PM	#4
VoxRat Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: New Jersey Posts: 1,768	I take it, then, that Pagels and King book (or via: amazon.co.uk) is based on the "mistranslation"?

10-23-2007, 07:56 PM	#5
Magdlyn Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 2,230	I thought daemon/daimon did mean spirit in Greek. Not sure how she went from Greek daemon to the Coptic word, to the English demon... dai·mon (dī'mōn') Pronunciation Key n. Greek Mythology 1. An inferior deity, such as a deified hero. 2. An attendant spirit; a genius.

10-23-2007, 10:11 PM	#6
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	I feel at a disadvantage for not knowing Coptic. I too am confused by her reference to the word daimon. Is she referring to the Greek word (which more often denotes spirits or minor deities than demons [although the NT uses it to designate demons]) or is she referring to some similar Coptic word? I'm also not sure that "set apart" and "separated from" are substantially different in meaning. I don't know that she's wrong but I don't have the Coptic to evaluate her arguments. I'll have to wait and see what rebuttals might be forthcoming from the original translation team.

11-10-2007, 01:18 AM	#9
neilgodfrey Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Darwin, Australia Posts: 874	Have gone further and now have a description and review of my reading of her translation and critique of the National Geographic translation and background to the gospel itself -- here at What the Gospel of Judas Really Says and a discussion of specific translation differences here at Opposing Translations

11-10-2007, 01:30 AM	#10
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	If all this is true, it's good to see some work being done on this, although we all want more detail, and as far as I know no critical text has yet been published. It will be interesting to see what Coptologists say. But ... let's not forget that the NG translation and text were made freely available on the web. Is that true for Deconick's version, or do we have to buy a book to check her claims? Is there any chance that this is just "buy my book" stuff? Admittedly it doesn't sound like it, but... Probably just my deep-seated paranoia! All the best, Roger Pearse

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