Jehanne

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/301100.htm

Chili

That just goes along with what Jesus said, "fear not those who harm your body but fear those who rob your soul and your body." The message here is that if they warp your mind your body will soon get sick and be lost on its own (remember here that there is no sickness or pain in heaven to say that bodily infirmities are self induced even despite our best intentions).

The message of Aquinas was that if secular authorities have the right to put someone to death because they harm our temporal life, the Church should have much more right to do the same if they destroy our eternal life when they lead us astray. Notice that his term "that quickens the soul" is equal to "on fire for the Lord" which is hell on earth in their point of view.

But there was an Inquisition, and an Inquisitor, and a trial, and a change to repent, and a change to either leave the fold peacefully or return to the fold under their conditions. Above all must their torture be seen as a second change to repent and at the same time prove that they deserved to die and that their judgement was correct.

Chili

But I never claimed that God sends people to hell nor did I ever claim that sinners go to hell. In fact, I would argue that sinners go to heaven if the cross of eternal salvation is for sinners only and for this you only have to recognize that the law was given to Moses to convict man of sin and thus not to stop sin. Romans 7:9 tells us that the law roused in me all kind of evil desire etc. to say that the Law is good for it brought death out of which eternal life was gained.

My argument is that hell is the premature awakening of the inner man that must leave us handicapped as if we were a butterfly without wings (or a locust that roams the desert in search for nourishment). Shakespeare called it "from his mothers womb untimely ripped" for which suicide was the best solution to end the agony of Macbeth.

It really doesn't matter what you believe because if you are rational being you are affected by what is called Original Sin . . . and the concept Original Sin cannot be conceived to exist until paradise is regained because only from 'there' is Original Sin visible. Hence, the Jews do not recognize Original Sin nor can they because they are still waiting for their Messiah. Can you follow that?

Maimonides

I see... but you still haven't answered my basic question (I think it was addressed elsewhere onsite), Why would God send (otherwise sincere, devout) people to hell simply for not being Christians? (I'm thinking here of all those outside the scope of traditional Christianity, as well as those whose convictions run contrary to it- i.e. Muslims, "heretics" such as the Cathari, many agnostics, etc. etc. etc.)

The law was given to convict man of sin... to achieve a more enlightened and salvific state?

So hell is unfullfillment? I don't mean to twist your words, I'm trying to understand... I had always been wont to think of it in terms of sulfur and brimstone, hardly the work of a just, merciful, omniscient deity.

What then is Original Sin? I take it you are able to conceive of it as something more than a hereditary defect passed down from Adam and Eve. Certainly I'm willing to concede we all do things we regret, "sin" if you will.

Understand that I'm not trying to exacerbate the conflict between faith and reason that seems to have pervaded our society: if anything faith and reason should complement each other. If my earlier post seemed harsh in its criticism know that I'm not out to attack you or your beliefs. I consider myself an agnostic Christian and wish to achieve a more holistic and mature understanding of the nature of ultimate reality. ~Sincerely, Maimonides

Chili

God doesn't send people to hell nor does Lord God send people to hell. Hell is religion specific, just as heaven is religion specific which in Christendom is a state of mind and not a place where Christians 'go to' after they physically die. Heaven is a state of mind that is ours after the Beatific Vision wherein the two minds become one. In the Gospels they are called the father and the son with the son being of 'this' generation and the father from the 'previous' generations wherefore "the reign of God is already in our midst" and those who are in the reign of God "can speak of both the old and the new," etc. This would make the son our contribution in this lifetime and the father that which is incarnate upon us via the soul wherein we are eternal because the father is incarnate upon us.

In a religious context Buddhist, for example cannot go to hell, nor do ppl who are not part of the 'flock' to the extent Christianity is not known to have an effect on their lives. The reason why I add this is, because, like heaven, hell is an actual state of mind (or heaven could not be) wherein the believer has "entered the race" with the hope of gaining eternal life in the end.

In my opinion simple believers in Christendom, such as Catholics and Protestant denominations who do not forcefully "quicken the spirit within" will remain cold and die a natural death with no further consequences to them or their soul after they physically die.

To get to heaven we must die to our human nature. To die to our human nature is a metaphor because our human nature is an illusion since 'it' is our second nature that was added when we became rational beings in addition to 'the being' called 'man' who is non-rational as animal man. In other words if there is two of us, two of us must die and if we are able to die to our human nature long before we physically die we will have heaven on earth between our first and second death --if we manage to raise our human nature on the other side of this first death so reason can prevail and we don't end up insane.

Before we can die to our second nature our first nature must be reborn (famous word) into our conscious mind and have it (this new born identity) crucify our second nature that has experienced this rebirth. Once again, crucifixion is a metaphor because our second nature is an illusion but even as illusion did it manage to rule over our life and take charge of our destiny as rational beings. In other words, our faculty of reason must be crucified indicates that it must 'die' before it can be raised again in the upper room of our subconscious mind that once was called the "netherworld" in the bible.

Our failure to die to our faculty of reason after we are born again will leave us with this dual identity within our conscious mind wherein we are both "saved and sinner" and this condition is called hell in the bible if it prevails until we physically die. So really, that which Christians call salvation is hell if it prevails past 42 moths which in Catholicism is called Purgatory and in the bible is called the time needed to "work out our own salvation" after we have "entered the race."

So there you go, those people who condemn you to hell are most likely in hell from where they hope that things will get better after they die.It is like fishing bait wherein the forbidden fruit is made to look attractive so it may lead us into the depth of despair from where we are willing to surrender our human nature (here called sin-nature because the Law tainted it that way). Hell is the inability to complete the race because humans, not God, forced a premature rebirth in the minds of innocent believers. We see this at the "age of accountability commitments," failing love relationships, and all sorts of other social problems that seem like evidence that our world is 'caving in on us.' Such a 'victim of society' will be the "carcass" likely to become prey to the "vultures" that walk our streets in "two by two's" because experience has taught them that that is when and where conversions take place (and I think it is utterly cruel to play a hokus pokus on somebody who is 'down and out).' Original Sin is the condition of being rational and follow our Tree of Knowledge for our orientation in life. It is not a hereditary defect in our genetic make-up or heaven on earth would not be possible . . . nor could hell be a reality. It is incarnate upon us because we are eternal beings with an imaginary temporal existence in our ego consciousness.Faith and reason should go hand in hand and they can if we do not 'stir' the "indoctrinated bread of life" that accompanies us in our journey of life. William Golding wrote this best in "The Spire" where he said that "it was as easy as eating and drinking," one thing to be done after the other. Since the renewal of our mind is a once-in-a-life-time event we should let it come about at it's own time and not tamper with the mind of others and lead them into this premature enlightened state of mind that eventually will haunt them for the rest of their life.

You're welcome.

greyline

Is all this stuff in the bible or are you just making it up?

Chili

It's all in the bible. In fact, it is the only perspective that makes the bible inerrant.

greyline

The bible says that heaven is "a state of mind", human nature is an illusion and "our faculty of reason must be crucified" before it can be "raised again in the upper room of our subconscious mind"?

My bible doesn't say that.

Or are you referring to your interpretation of the bible? An interpretation that you made up? (You do say "in my opinion" somewhere in that post...) Or if not, where does that interpretation come from?

Chili

Your bible may not say that. I use the NAB which is by far the most poetic of all. Most often I read 'between the lines' where the allegories and metaphors 'speak,' as they must, since that is what allegories and metaphor's are meant to do.

Yes, my interpretation. Notice that I do not quote many scholars in my interpretation but will resort to artistic expressions to enforce my ideas. But it is just my opinion and no more.

greyline

So you did make it up.

It's interesting that you said yours is the only interpretation that makes the bible inerrant. Surely you're aware that many Christians believe the bible is inerrant, yet most of them don't share your interpretation of the scriptures.

What makes you right, and them wrong?