FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-12-2005, 07:39 AM   #1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Earth
Posts: 80
Default The NT and the Talmud, Tractate Yoma 39b

From what I have read, in the Talmud, in Tractate Yoma 39b, it is mentioned that in the 40 years Shimon HaTzaddik was high priest, miracles occurred such as the strip of scarlet-dyed wool which was tied to the head of the scapegoat always turned white during the Yom Kippur service. If it stated that after the death of Shimon HaTzaddik, these miracles occurred some times, but at others times they did not. Also, it is stated that 40 years before the second Temple was destroyed, the strip of scarlet-dyed wool which was tied to the head of the scapegoat remained red and did not turn white.

Now, there is a Christian claim that the miracle turning the strip white ceased around the time of Jesus' crucifixion. I would like to know what is thought about this. Is this merely a coincidence? Do the Christians have their dates messed up? Does the Talmud in fact not say what is quoted?

I guess I am just kind of fishing for more information about the dates, and if possibly the Talmud story was influenced by the story of Jesus, or vice versa.

Thanks for any help.
unknown4 is offline  
Old 03-12-2005, 08:36 AM   #2
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Birmingham UK
Posts: 4,876
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by unknown4
From what I have read, in the Talmud, in Tractate Yoma 39b, it is mentioned that in the 40 years Shimon HaTzaddik was high priest, miracles occurred such as the strip of scarlet-dyed wool which was tied to the head of the scapegoat always turned white during the Yom Kippur service. If it stated that after the death of Shimon HaTzaddik, these miracles occurred some times, but at others times they did not. Also, it is stated that 40 years before the second Temple was destroyed, the strip of scarlet-dyed wool which was tied to the head of the scapegoat remained red and did not turn white.

Now, there is a Christian claim that the miracle turning the strip white ceased around the time of Jesus' crucifixion. I would like to know what is thought about this. Is this merely a coincidence? Do the Christians have their dates messed up? Does the Talmud in fact not say what is quoted?

I guess I am just kind of fishing for more information about the dates, and if possibly the Talmud story was influenced by the story of Jesus, or vice versa.

Thanks for any help.
See http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/t03/yom09.htm#page_58

Quote:
The rabbis taught: In the time of the forty years during which Simeon the Upright was high-priest, the lot for Jehovah always came into the high-priest's right hand, but thereafter it sometimes fell into his right, sometimes into his left hand. And the tongue of crimson wool, during the time of Simeon the Upright, always became white. But after Simeon the Upright, sometimes it became white, sometimes it remained red.
Quote:
The rabbis taught: Forty years before the Temple was destroyed, the lot never came into the right hand, the red wool did not become white, the western light did not burn,
This story is prima facie legendary and probably late, but exactly 40 years before the Temple was destroyed (ie 30 CE) would be about the time of the crucifixion.

However 40 years before is often used in Jewish writings to mean a generation or so before and does not necessarily mean exactly 40 years.

Andrew Criddle
andrewcriddle is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:54 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.