K!D

any thoughts on these facts from genesis this must be as old as the book itself but i'd like to know what people think.

1 it was god that lied 'for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die'

2 the serpent told the truth 'ye shall not surely die'

3 the sepernt told another truth 'the day ye eat thereof your eyes shall be opened and ye shall be as gods knowing good and evil'

4 god banished 'the man' for becoming wise and to prevent him from becoming immortal 'behold he has become as one of us now to know good and evil: and now lest he put forth his hand and and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.'

johntheapostate

I always thought that if the serpent really was crafty and if he was actually operating in opposition to god, he would have had the couple eat from the tree of life first. That tree was not even off limits.

Sensei Meela

That's debateable. The Hebrew expression is something of an idiom; it does not expressly mean "you'll drop dead that day" but rather "your death is assured." [cf 1 King 2:32] (There is a thread that covers this, a bit)

Diogenes the Cynic

Other myths of this nature (which often involve a serpent) tend to be more explicitly about about how mankind lost his chance at immortality (Gilgamesh, for example). They were originally explanations for why people die, not so much about them becoming "sinners."

I think the Eden story is just a variation on Mesoptamian mortality teleologies and that the first statement in the OP could probably be defended as God warning them that they would become mortal rather than that they would literally drop dead that second. I believe this is a slight reversal on the ususal formula of humans losing possession of an object (or foodstuff) that will give them immortality. I can think of two examples off the top of my head where the object is stolen by a serpent.

Godless Wonder

So prior to eating from the tree of knowledge they were immortal, and they lost their immortality, but had they eaten from the tree of life they could have regained it?

Is the tree of life itself immortal?

Oh, never mind, I don't really care that much. (Didn't notice this was BC&H before I posted.)

Sensei Meela

Hmm, not sure; I seem to recall Augustine had written something on that. In my (admittedly untrained) reading, it was more like, they could die, but eating the fruit of the ToK ensured that they would. Eating fruit from the ToL, on the otherhand, would ensure that they would not die...which raises an interesting question: can God not kill an immortal being?
Another interesting question!
Out of curiosity, why should it matter what forum this is?

yummyfur

There is no similarity at all between Genesis 3:3 or Genesis 2:17 and 1 Kings 2:32 as far as the Hebrew involved. Also in 1 King 2:32, Joab is executed right away.

My guess is, you meant 1 Kings 2:37 which does have similar Hebrew to Geneisis 2:17. In this verse Solomon, to insure that Shemei would remain in close proximity to Jerusalem, warned him: “For on the day you go out and cross over the brook Kidron, you will know for certain that you shall surely die; your blood shall be on your own head.� (1 Kings 2:37). After three years, however, Shimei left to retrieve two of his runaway slaves. When Shimei returned, Solomon reminded him of his previous warning: “Know for certain that on the day you go out and travel anywhere, you shall surely die� (1 Kings 2:42). Solomon was faithful to this stringent punishment, and sent Benaiah, the son of Jehoida, who struck Shimei down, “...and he died� (1 Kings 2:46). This episode clearly defines the phrase “you shall surely die� as a physical, violent death. Further, the phrase “on the day� in this text parallels the language of Genesis 2:17, indicating the immediate time frame of the death. (Other scriptures in which this configuration appears are: 2 Kings 1:4,6,16; Jeremiah 26:8, Ezekiel 3:18; 33:8; 33:14). The preponderance of Scriptural usage of this grammatical construction is in favor of a immediate interpretation of the phrase “you shall surely die.� The only thing that causes a slight delay in Shimei's death was Solomon's lack of omnipotence, if he had been capable of killing him as he crossed the Kidron, he would have. God, of course does not have this excuse and 930 years is hardly immediatly assuring ones death. The usage is pretty clear, that the death will be as immediate as the person stating it can make it.

I say it is fairly obvious that God was lying, as this whole story has strong parrellels with the Sumerian/Babylonian Adapa story, in which Ea decieved Adapa, about the consequences of eating from the bread and water of immortality. The whole point, is a story that explains why humans have conciousness like gods but are not immortal like gods.

Sensei Meela

Indeed, I meant -:37 and -:42. My mistake.

Thanks for the info. :thumbs:

K!D

good thread thanx, but

the serpent uses the expression 'in the day that ye shalt eat thereof' also.

in the day they eat thereof their eyes are opened and they do not fall down dead but they know they are naked.

K!D

what about god not wanting his creation to live forever?