Celsus

See here for a comparison with the Semitic religions.

Joel

Peter Kirby

Reading the above (whether from Metacrock or someone else) was a painful, painful experience. Totally belligerent and irrational. I don't care if you have dyslexia; typing nine consecutive exclamation points is criminal.

Your interlocutor makes much sound and fury about Roger Viklund "lying" and that, therefore, his footnotes are "bad" and "can't be trusted." There is only one point on which interlocutor himself checks one of these footnotes, and that is the Iliad. Here are his statements (consider sic-lock on):

"As tot he Bogus Reference to the Iliad, here is what Book 19 Verses 95-99 relaly say..."

"It is important ot note that Herculese doesnt show up in the Iliad, since it is the sotry of Achileis and his wrath, not Herculese, whow as laready Dead before the trojan War began...rather, Herculese, mentioe din lined 140-152, appears in a dialouge ocoincernign his Birth..."

"But this dialouge bares little resemblance tot he afforementioend claims... Their is no flight, and no Hera ( Juno, Latin names used here) seekignto kill him for fear of loisng her thrine...below is the relevant pasage..."

"Lee, you havent reas the Iliad, have you? Had you reas it, you woiudl know that Herculese is not menitoned, nor his Birth. Go on, read book 19. I dare you. Read the whole volume, its free online."

"Except Alchemene was neither a virgin, nor was she travelign anywhere... I know the Iliad said otherwise... but if you READ book 19, you will see Herculese isnt mentioned...( Sorry, I was mistaken, I thogth he entered in book 20, he is mentioend in book 19... but the evetns differ radiclaly than the Articles claims.)"

"find independant veritfication she feared he woudl userp her... I dare you...soemthign that dosnt say Herculese appears int he Iliad"

"I wont beleive this reference until I see it... as it is, I alreayd know this article lied abotthe Iliad, whikc is foolish since its such a well known wirk and freely availableonline..."

"We know his other footnotes are bad. I even showed his Iliad footnote, why shoudl I beleive this" (emphasis added--the interlocutor has looked up only the Iliad citation)

In any case, here is what Roger Viklund said:

"Heracles’ mortal parents make a trip from their hometown Mycenae, to Thebes, where Zeus makes Alcmene pregnant and she gives birth to Heracles (Homer, The Iliad, 19:95-99 [Loeb])."

(This follows upon a previous sentence--"Just like Jesus, Heracles has a mortal stepfather (Amphitryon). But like Joseph (Matth 2:4ff), Amphitryon does not have sexual intercourse with his wife until after the divine conception has taken place."--but I don't believe that the reader can claim that the in-sentence Iliad reference must bear out the previous sentence as well.)

Here is what the Iliad (Book 19, Verses 95-99) says:

"a mere female [Hera], with her cunning tactics,
deceived him that very day Alcmene
was to give birth to mighty Hercules,
in Thebes, city with the splendid walls."

This Iliad reference does not even say everything that is in the same sentence by Viklund: it doesn't contain any mention of Mycenae or a trip. It is simply the earliest reference to the birth of Hercules to Alcmene in Thebes.

But there is evidence to support Viklund's account. Here is the account again:

"His father is the mighty god Zeus (Hesiod, [8th century BCE], Theogonia, 943 [Loeb]). Just like Jesus, Heracles has a mortal stepfather (Amphitryon). But like Joseph (Matth 2:4ff), Amphitryon does not have sexual intercourse with his wife until after the divine conception has taken place. Heracles’ mortal parents make a trip from their hometown Mycenae, to Thebes, where Zeus makes Alcmene pregnant and she gives birth to Heracles (Homer, The Iliad, 19:95-99 [Loeb])."

Here is a good scholarly source. Harry Thurston Peck, Harpers Dictionary of Classical Antiquities (1898). Found on Perseus:

Alcmēné
(Alkmênê). The daughter of Electryon, king of Mycenae, who promised to marry Amphitryon, provided he avenged the death of her brothers, who had been slain by the sons of Pterelaüs. Amphitryon undertook the task; but, during his absence, Zeus, in the disguise of Amphitryon, visited Alcmené, and, pretending to be her husband, related in what way he had avenged the death of her brothers. Amphitryon himself returned the next day. Alcmené became the mother of Heracles by Zeus, and of Iphicles by Amphitryon.

This should clear up the interlocutor's confusion, expressed here: "Odd he makes no reference to where htis can be found. Silly, especially since all forms of the Herculese Myth I have ever heard has this as false. See, Herculese had a twin, Iphacelse, whose father was Aphitriton. If he refraied form Sexual intercoruse with his wife till after Herculese was dilevered, how do you explain the twin???" Roger Viklund says that "Amphitryon does not have sexual intercourse with his wife until after the divine conception"--not after his birth. And the dictionary above confirms that Alcmene and Amphitryon had not consummated their marriage when Zeus impregnated Alcmene. "Sorry," this is the truth, easily confirmed if you have and consult a dictionary of mythology.

Here is the account of Apollodorus (Library and Epitome 2.4.6):

"Wishing to avenge his sons' death, Electryon purposed to make war on the Teleboans, but first he committed the kingdom to Amphitryon along with his daughter Alcmena, binding him by oath to keep her a virgin until his return. However, as he was receiving the cows back, one of them charged, and Amphitryon threw at her the club which he had in his hands. But the club rebounded from the cow's horns and striking Electryon's head killed him. Hence Sthenelus laid hold of this pretext to banish Amphitryon from the whole of Argos, while he himself seized the throne of Mycenae and Tiryns; and he entrusted Midea to Atreus and Thyestes, the sons of Pelops, whom he had sent for. Amphitryon went with Alcmena and Licymnius to Thebes and was purified by Creon and gave his sister Perimede to Licymnius. And as Alcmena said she would marry him when he had avenged her brothers' death, Amphitryon engaged to do so, and undertook an expedition against the Teleboans, and invited Creon to assist him. Creon said he would join in the expedition if Amphitryon would first rid the Cadmea of the vixen; for a brute of a vixen was ravaging the Cadmea. ... But before Amphitryon reached Thebes, Zeus came by night and prolonging the one night threefold he assumed the likeness of Amphitryon and bedded with Alcmena and related what had happened concerning the Teleboans. But when Amphitryon arrived and saw that he was not welcomed by his wife, he inquired the cause; and when she told him that he had come the night before and slept with her, he learned from Tiresias how Zeus had enjoyed her. And Alcmena bore two sons, to wit, Hercules, whom she had by Zeus and who was the elder by one night, and Iphicles, whom she had by Amphitryon. When the child was eight months old, Hera desired the destruction of the babe and sent two huge serpents to the bed. Alcmena called Amphitryon to her help, but Hercules arose and killed the serpents by strangling them with both his hands. However, Pherecydes says that it was Amphitryon who put the serpents in the bed, because he would know which of the two children was his, and that when Iphicles fled, and Hercules stood his ground, he knew that Iphicles was begotten of his body."

Metacrock had said, "False. Her husband is off to war, Zeus impersonates her husband and sleeps with her in her own house. Their is no trip." But the story about the trip that Amphitryon and Alcmene had to make from Mycenea to Thebes is recorded just above.

Also, Viklund wrote: "Also Heracles was known to come from his father’s hometown Mycenae, despite the fact that he was born in Thebes (Friedrich Pfister, Herakles und Christus, p. 47; refers to a Greek inscription, Carmina epigraphica, 22)."

Our interlocutor replied: "His father was Zeus, who resides on olympus..." But doesn't he remember Viklund informing the reader that Amphitryon and his wife left Mycenae for Thebes? The "hometown" that Heracles was thought to hail from in this Greek inscription was the home of his "mortal father," Amphitryon.

So, our interlocutor has made these claims in response to the article's treatment of what he made to be the most important issue (and which I focus on because the rest is mostly bluster), alleged errors in citing the Iliad and describing the infancy mythology of Hercules:

1. Hercules doesn't appear in the Iliad.
2. Here is what these verses (Bk. 19, vss. 95-99) "really say" ... and then he quotes an entirely different passage.
3. What Viklund says about Alcmene and Hercules contradicts the Iliad's story (once he realized that the birth of Hercules is in fact mentioned).
4. Alcmene didn't travel from Mycenaea to Thebes.
5. Alcmene had intercourse with Amphitryon before Zeus.

Our interlocutor is wrong on all counts, as explained above.

You may link to this post from wherever. But please don't copy it elsewhere.

best,
Peter Kirby

SkepticBoyLee

A thousand thanks. I simply want to know the truth though I must admit proving this pissant to be in error would delight me.

Thanks you for taking the time with that.

Also I apologize as I did use the Vikklund stuff on the other board. Im fairly new to this stuff and dont know really the etiquette involved although it suppose it should be obvious that I credit ones work.

IT is Zarove3 on MEtcrocks boards. Not MEtacrock who is one thousand times more coherant and intelligent. Though hes a picker and chooser guy and can be frusterating hes nothing like this little pissant.

This clears up a lot and it would have taken me hours to discover (gasp) on my own, what you wrapped up for me in just a few minutes.

Word to Peter Kirbys mutha-

SkepticBoyLee

I linked your response to Z's stuff. Hes going pretty ape shit on me and says he has emailed you and what not. Im sure you have better things to do. I apologize as I didnt mean to get you into any message board horseshit. I challenged him to come here to this thread and answer your rebuttle and to discuss further* Jesus/mythology simularities but I think he is piss scared to leave his theistic homesite.




*though given your reaction to his post maybe youd rather him not do so....

Peter Kirby

Yes, he e-mailed me. I invited him to post to IIDB. He said that he "may not" take me up on the offer because he is starting school next week.

Here was my e-mail to him. Again, do not copy it elsewhere. You may, of course, link to this thread.

Hello,

I didn't read any of the "Have Theology..." board until now. Â*I don't approve of SkepticBoyLee's immaturity ("ass raping"???). Â*If you'd like to continue the discussion publicly, I suggest registering with Internet Infidels and replying there.

You did, at one point, say that Hercules wasn't in the Iliad.

"Lee, you havent reas the Iliad, have you? Had you reas it, you woiudl know that Herculese is not menitoned, nor his Birth. Go on, read book 19. I dare you. Read the whole volume, its free online."

"find independant veritfication she feared he woudl userp her... I dare you...soemthign that dosnt say Herculese appears int he Iliad"

You say, "Yoru wrong mate, Alcemene did have sex with her husband before Zeus had her." Â*Did you read my evidence that shows otherwise?

"And as Alcmena said she would marry him when he had avenged her brothers' death, Amphitryon engaged to do so, and undertook an expedition against the Teleboans, and invited Creon to assist him. Creon said he would join in the expedition if Amphitryon would first rid the Cadmea of the vixen; for a brute of a vixen was ravaging the Cadmea. ... But before Amphitryon reached Thebes, Zeus came by night and prolonging the one night threefold he assumed the likeness of Amphitryon and bedded with Alcmena and related what had happened concerning the Teleboans." -Apollodorus (Library and Epitome 2.4.6)

So Amphitryon left Alcmene in Thebes *before* they got hitched. Â*Presumably they hadn't got it on yet. Â*(Of course, there *might* be alternate versions of the story in other writers; let me know if you find one.)

"Nope. I looked it up in Fagels. Lines 90-85 where about agamenon, Herculese was mentioend in Lined 142-145. Your sources where wrong. This lead to my ereror, but it accurate. You cant tell by the prose translaiton of Butler, but if you get a copy of Fagels, look up the 95 line in it, it has no menton of Herculese."

I have a hard copy of Fagles on my desk right beside me. Â*If you read the translator's preface and recalled its information, you would be aware that the numbering in Fagles is *not* the same as the line metrics of the Greek. Â*Viklund specifically referenced the Loeb edition, where the line numbers do correspond to the Greek text (as the Greek is on the facing page). Â*You are in error.

Here is an online translation that has Greek line numbers in brackets. Â*Look for [100] and then read the four lines above it (Bk. 19, vss. 95-99).

http://www.mala.bc.ca/~johnstoi/homer/iliad19.htm

See you on IIDB. Â*Maybe.

--
Peter Kirby (Student at Fullerton College, CA)
Web Site: http://www.peterkirby.com/

[[Do not copy this elsewhere! Link to this thread if you like.]]

SkepticBoyLee

I just dont think he wants to post on II. He wants to stick in his mutual admiration society. Im sure he went on and on about how I started things with him which is of course, not true. To my discredit I will not hesitate to become sophmoric on that particular site when provoked. However he has already been banned from half the boards once on HTWA by Metacrock and has been responsible for a few posters defecting. He did, as you saw, say that Hercules wasnt in the Iliad and then made a revision with the hopes that I never saw it. Luckily I had posted a paste of his post here before he made the revision. It is true that I should not have used the term "ass raping". I probably should have used something more clever. Possibly calling him a "testical craping rectal wart" may have been more approriate.

At any rate thanks once again for your time and effort on this subject. I'm slowly piecing together some semblance of knowledge of religious history because of the help via site and book reccomendations of people like you on message communities. The mythology stuff is something I can take a loof at now that I have an online version of the Iliad, your linked works of Roger Viklund. Of course MEtacrock claims that "NO serious scholars believe there are any signifigant simularities" and that they are all lying Jesus mythers. While its obvious that there are axe grinding, embellishing Jesus mythers the notion that there are no simularities and that nothing form christinaity was borrowed or combined at all doesnt seem to be the case either.

Vorkosigan

You should also read some of the Hero Cycle stuff. A good introduction would be Campbell's book Hero with a thousand faces. His four book series Masks of God also contains numerous parallels and references.

Vorkosigan

Ted Hoffman

I think you should add Innana - if you get time anyway. Because she was crucified (pierced and 'hung on a tree' like in Psalms) and rose after three days.

And perhaps respond to my post on Adonis.

Celsus

There is nothing to respond to, because you've confused the Hellenistic Adonis (e.g. as in De Dea Syria) with the Phoenician one, where nothing remains to be described (Smith in my opinion went farther than he needed to in even considering De Dea Syria). We're only talking about Semitic religions, all of which are shown to be chimaeric parallels (though it undermines most of Frazer's examples). As I wrote, "Detienne warns that further trajectories of the Adonis traditions in Greek material remove this figure far beyond recognition with any particular Middle Eastern god." You shouldn't fall into this trap. And if you didn't understand the point against using a 1908 translation, I don't know what to say.

Joel

Ted Hoffman

First of all, Freke and Gandy wrote their book as a popular book, not an academic one. In that sense, wrestling them down with serious arguments is like fighting with a clown.

Archaya S is like Jesus Myth's Josh McDowell. Enough said.

The main doyen of Jesus Mythicism is Earl Doherty. I recently wrote the following post in another Board which was attempting to discredit Doherty's thesis on the basis of the dying and rising saviour gods parallel. Contrary to misinformed opinion, Jesus mythicism actually relies heavily on the (a) OT (ascencion of Isaiah) to get the platonic framework of a multi-layered universe (c) the silence outside the gospels especially in christian documents like shepherd of Hermas, 1 Clement, Odes of Solomon and Tatian's Address to the Greeks, Epistle to Diognetus etc (d) Pauline epistles and so on.

Inanna's descent, death and resurrection (which took place after 3 days) is used as 'proof of concept' that the dying and rising saviour gods motif was extant during the hellenistic era when GMark was written (Inanna's death story is available in Samuel Kramer's History Begins at Sumer - and he relies on Sumerian clay tablets as a source).

It is not used to argue that xstianity borrowed the idea from pagans - but is used to argue that the idea that a mythical god descended and died had antedecents and therefore xstianity would not be unique in that respect.

A number of websites however (98% of the ones on the internet) argue that Xstianity borrowed from Mithraism. This is false and they borrow ideas from Franz Cumont who made errors in his book.

First of all, its important to note that categorization of the gods (Osiris, Baal, Tammuz, Melqart, Adonis etc) as fertility gods, storm gods etc, is not relevant to the christ myth hypothesis.

In addition, arguments regarding the level of divinity of the gods, like arguing that Tammuz is only a demi-god, or has a semi-divine status, or is a 'lesser god' are equally irrelevant. Frazer's comparative study is discredited for having produced imaginary categories, and subsequently applying these categories uncritically accross cultures and time-frames. This too, is irrelevant to the christ myth hypothesis.

Who Crucified Jesus?

The rulers of this age (archons) as in 1 Corinthians 2:6-8. Who are these rulers? Ephesians 3:9-10 indicates that they are "in the heavens". Colossians 2:15 tells us that "On the cross he[Jesus] discarded the cosmic powers and authorities like a garment; he made a public spectacle of them and led them as captives in his triumphal procession."

Thus, christs death is placed on another realm by Paul.

Ignatius used the term archon in a clearly angelic/spiritual sense (Smyrneans 6:1). Origen too regarded the archonton as evil spiritual beings, and so did the gnostic Marcion.

Doherty states:
"Modern scholars like C. K. Barrett (First Epistle to the Corinthians, p.72), Paula Fredriksen (From Jesus to Christ, p.56), and Jean Hering (The First Epistle of St. Paul to the Corinthians, p.16-17, a brief but penetrating analysis), have felt constrained to agree. Delling in the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (I, p.489) notes that the spirit rulers are portrayed by Paul as "treating the Lord of glory as prey in ignorance of the divine plan for salvation." They operated in the spiritual realm, which S. Salmond (The Expositor's Greek Testament, Ephesians, p.284) describes as "supra-terrestrial but sub-celestial regions." Paul Ellingworth, A Translator's Handbook for 1 Corinthians, p.46, states: "A majority of scholars think that supernatural powers are intended here."

End of story. If anyone bothers you on this archons argument, PM me .

Who were the dying and rising Gods?

The Paradigmatic sescent and suffering leading to exaltation is found in Philippians 2:6-11 where an unnamed god bears a human likeness, and accepts death then is exalted by being named Jesus:

"For the divine nature was his from the first; yet he did not think to snatch at equality with God, but made himself nothing, assuming the nature (or form) of a slave. Bearing the human likeness, revealed in human shape, he humbled himself, and in obedience accepted even death—death on a cross. Therefore God raised him to the heights and bestowed on him the name above all names, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow—in heaven, on earth, and in the depths—and every tongue confess, 'Jesus Christ is Lord', to the glory of God the Father"

We learn from Paul that Jesus came down in the sphere of the flesh (kata sarka). Doherty informs us that "C. K. Barrett translates kata sarka in Romans 1:3 as "in the sphere of the flesh." See his Epistle to the Romans, p.20; compare C. E. B. Cranfield, International Critical Commentary: Romans, p.60"

We are also informed that the apostate emperor Julian, in Orations V, 165 wrote that Attis "descended to the lowest spirit level prior to matter, undergoing his death by castration to give the visible world order and fruitfulness."

The highlighted text indicates the platonic worldview that Paul and Philo ("heavenly man") embraced, the concept of death and resurrection of the gods and operations of archons.

Philo writes:

"At the conclusion of the work of creation, God made first the heavenly man through the Logos; i.e., the preexistent ideal man, in his pretemporal, spiritual, unsexual eternal state, untainted by sin and truly in the divine image. Subsequently, the earthly man, made not by the Logos alone but with the aid of the lower potencies, was deficient in the perfect image of God and was, in advance, subject to the possibility of sinning. Indeed, his higher soul (nous) came from the creative, living breath of God, but in the creation of his lower soul (with its earthly reason, nous gein) as well as his body, several angelic potencies or demiurges cooperated. After the earthly man had lived seven years in Paradise, or the realm of virtues, especially of piety and wisdom, he was sexually differentiated by the formation of woman from him and he entered the state of temptation and sin. "
http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/encyc/e...tm/ii.liii.htm

In Isaiah's vision, we also see the son descending and getting 'crucified' (hang upon a tree) by demons:
Isaiah (9:13-17):
"The Lord will descend into the world in the last days, he who is to be called Christ after he has descended and become like you in form, and they will think that he is flesh and a man. And the god of that world will stretch out his hand against the Son, and they will lay their hands upon him and hang him upon a tree, not knowing who he is. And thus his descent, as you will see, will be concealed from the heavens, so that it will not be known who he is. And when he has plundered the angel of death, he will rise on the third day and will remain in the world for 545 days. 17And then many of the righteous will ascend with him."

"They will think that he is flesh and a man" clearly implies that he is not flesh and blood. He takes the form of a man, the god of that world (satan) goes against him, they (satan's demons) hung him on a tree, he dies and rises on the third day after plundering the angel of death.
This is similar to what we have in 1 Corinthians 2:8.

Where does the Crucifixion Take Place?

In the air between the sun and the moon where satan and his demons dwell. How do we know this? Well, Isaiah passes that realm during his ascent in 7:9-12 where he saw satan and his warring angels.